Welsh Dragon Lore

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Dendrias
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Dendrias » 22 Mar 2009, 15:22

Of course, Merlyn. That's why I asked.
The ... form of a dragon is, I guess, at least important for the way You look at itself and what it represents. So the form is important for the way You look at thinks, e.g. elements. Am I right with that?

May I have a look at Yours? Encircled by four knots - which might be the four winds or elements. It has wings (air), a snake-body (earth, in ancient times) and predators paws (perhaps fire), fierce expression. The wings are whirling around. This dragon might be the vital force of the world.

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Kernos
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Kernos » 22 Mar 2009, 17:17

...But I can tell You, that in the ancient Greek and Roman context, "dragon" is just a huge snake, sometimes with a cockscomb.
I agree the Classical greco-romans did not have a concept of a dragon that is common in later trans-Alpine and Insular Europe. The ultimate etymology for the word 'dragon' comes from the ancient Greek, δράκων (drakon) which meant serpent. And on some artifacts and coins these are shown as snakes with the occasional addition of horns.
I checked Corvins quotes, well, those of Jeremiah only, but this had an astonishing outcome: Half of the Jeremiah quotes translate (into German) not "dragon", but jackal! But it's only half of them, so I wonder why.
This is what bothers me about accepting anything from Biblical texts which have been translated and retranslated so many times, that what was originally meant is lost. I would be very surprised if there was an ancient Hebrew concept of our Western dragon.

I have found no really believable exegesis of the development of our modern concept of the Western dragon.
What do Your dragons look like?
When I say Western dragon, I think of something like the Welsh dragon or those in modern fantasy literature. Big, winged, 4 feet, long tail, a carnivore's head and reptilian body, horned or not and fire-breathing or not. The Western literary dragon.
The Gryphon is another mythic form which appears in early Welsh lore and is represented in biblical ways. The Welsh dragon is often referred to as a gryphon.
Well the Welsh dragon is not a Gryphon (Griffin). The latter is a fantastic animal, winged with the head of an eagle and body of a lion. A Chimera is a fire-breathing fantasic animal with a lion's head and a goat's body and a serpent's tail. A Sphinx is a winged fantastic animal with a woman's head and breast on a lion's body. All of these are from Greek mythology. Now a wyvern I can see as being related to the Welsh dragon.

I suspect the Western dragon developed from a combinations of these coming to Britain via Roman legionary symbols. I also wonder if the Welsh dragon originated from the Arthurian/Myrddin mythos or vice versa.

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Merlyn
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Merlyn » 23 Mar 2009, 20:37

Two sides to the Welsh story as I have found by those who lived or traveled there,
The Welsh dragon is a "dragon" to those who are of the "old ways"
It is a Gryphon to those who are converted to Christianity.

Calling it a Gryphon is I think a way to "disassociate" IMO. I agree it is inaccurate.

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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Corvin » 29 Apr 2009, 23:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTu602Eo ... re=related 9:59

Clipped from site: When Dragons Ruled the World. Mythology. Astronomy

When Dragons Ruled the World. Shedding new light on the Dragons, Spirals, and Serpents of ancient myth.

http://www.plasmacosmology.net
http://www.thunderbolts.info

Advances in plasma physics, it seems, hold the key to our past as well as our future. Plasma mythology is an exciting new corollary of the emerging plasma universe paradigm. Could intense aurora like phenomena be seen around the world within the memory of humanity, and could this account for the enigmatic worldwide obsession with flying dragons and serpents?


Posted for those interested.

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Merlyn
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Merlyn » 30 Apr 2009, 03:30

Some very interesting studies Corvin.
I can see how this would relate to dragon lore.
In the sense I often describe the dragons as the force of chaos in our life which becomes order through our interaction with their elemental properties, it would make perfect sense that the dragons would take on shape and from in our minds and be mirrored in the universe and creation of life. Thus at times the dragons live in a different realm and become manifest in lore and mythos.

It also makes sense that those insistent on obsessive order would see dragons as evil, and insist on killing them.
Until we understand chaos of the universe as the needed seed of all order, we will forever misunderstand it.

Plasma is an interesting thing to consider, as I agree it was most likely more abundant at times then it is now.
The interaction it has with our human form may indicate way to understand how our minds can see other realms.
The action of electricity through plasma really does remind us of how a dragon moves, twists and reels through the air.
Another thing that is interesting about electricity, Earth, Air, Water and fire can all be related to it in one way or another. So can we.


Merlyn
Image :emerit:
Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

A Knight

Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby A Knight » 11 Aug 2011, 01:36

I have a deep interest in discovering the meaning being my ancestral connection with the red dragon and her association with the staff and Juniper smoke. As a fairly new bard, I have encountered rich impressions and I appreciate this learning resource to make clearer sense of them!

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Delian
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Delian » 28 Nov 2015, 00:53

I love dragons! I'd love to be part of The Circle of the Four Dragons. Thanks!!!
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Merlyn
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Re: Welsh Dragon Lore

Postby Merlyn » 30 Nov 2015, 20:59

Hi Delian,
Alas, this thread is 9 years old and the original circle of the four dragons members have long since wandered along their own paths.
I do from time to time stop in at the Druid's head pub for a bit of fun and lore.
Much of the years of dragon study and group support in the quest for dragon lore is still here in the COTFD forum and all who wish are more than welcome to browse it.
I'll see if the message board membership for groups like this still work. (It's been a while)

Indeed it does, you should be able to find the Circle of The Four Dragons forum in the member's section, "Groves and seed groups"

In light,
Merlyn /|\
Image :emerit:
Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.


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