cernunnos and shiva

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green magi
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cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 02 May 2010, 16:40

i believe that the green man who is connected with male energy and the hunt
is connected to shiva lord of destruction
perhaps the green man is an incarnation of shiva
ive found acient babalonion pics of shiva with antlers and sitting criss cross with animals holding a snake to control male energy and so on
the simularitys in the images are pretty odd
Pashupati-sacrifice.jpg
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 02 May 2010, 16:42

4080066107_715bb460ab_o[1].jpg
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 02 May 2010, 16:45

who really is this wild horned man of destruction that ancient people knew all over
ive evan seen native american depictions of hern !!!
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Dendrias » 02 May 2010, 16:49

Wow, that's thrilling.

Is Cernunnos = Green man, as Your second post seems to indicate?
And I don't quite understand: Do the pictures in Your first post show a Babylonian Shiva? I thought Shiva was Indian.
Could You please post Your sources, I'm so astonished of the similarities.

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 02 May 2010, 18:03

pakistan and india used to be one
ive noticed these simularitys for 2 years now and think its funny no one else does
shiva meditates on dear skin or tiger skin with his spear and bow,he holds a serpent and lives wild in the mountains and woods with strange earth creatures called the gannas
all shivas wives have been incarnation of the earth mother
both shiva and cernunnos are invoked by drum and musky smell
i believe the green man and hern are incarnations of cernunnos and shiva is the supreme incarnation of the destructive male energy
they all are in a sence the same
there are images and statues all over the world
shiva statues in hawai'i,and cernunnos in painting in south american caves
the middle east and africa are littered with images of this destructive horned being
that destroys and gives beyong human reasoning
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 02 May 2010, 18:17

most of the hindu gods origanate in the middle east,shivas had many names,rudra,mahesh,they dont evan really name him in the vedas till the yajur veda i think
he seems to live in rudra and agni and indra in the first rig veda only being hinted to where as vsnu is named and boldly separated to state his oneness,shiva lives in this raw male energy like cernunnos,the idea of shiva has evolved over thousands of years,so i balieve that shiva and cernunnos must stem from a same origanal being that over these thousand years evovled too soot the region and people
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby mwyalchen » 03 May 2010, 11:09

These similarities are certainly well known to some - for example I've seen a number of websites set up by Indians, pointing out the similarity between the Mohendara seal images of Rudra (which I think are among the ones you posted above?) and the image on the Gundestrop cauldron; and sometimes claiming that this means the cauldron is the work of Indian craftsmen.

Rudra is now considered a title of Shiva; the story of Shiva subduing the animals by the power of yoga seems relevant to the depiction of the animals on the cauldron.

But there is also another feature not often discussed by Westerners or included in our usual image of Cernunnos. If you look at some of your Shiva/Rudra images, you'll see that they have three faces. There are quite a few images of triple-faced heads from "Celtic" Europe, including both male and figures; but it's notable that the antlered figure with torcs and serpent in the Val Camonica rock carvings from Northern Italy has three faces, and so do a number of antlered figures from Gaul. (There's more in this in Miranda Green, Symbol and Image in Celtic Religious Art, Chapter 6.)

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby DaRC » 03 May 2010, 18:04

I also read a book about Shiva that linked him to Odin, using the much of the Wild Hunt imagery. It also noted that Odin's children are from earth mother's - Jord (Thor's mother) and Frigg (Balder and Hoenir). I borrowed it from the library and can't remember it's exact name or author.

However the triumvirate of Gods; Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma has links to the Germanic Odin, Loki and Hoenir whilst the Celtic has 3-faced gods and the Roman writer Lucan mentions the Celts as having 3 main gods; Taranis, Teutates and Esus. Another way to look at this is that GOD is derived from Growth, Order and Decay/Destruction - the natural cycle to life.

On the question of the Green Man and the Hunter I think this is more tricky, there are nuances in each pantheon that make simplification more complex IME. The Green Man has another side, or aspect, in John Barleycorn who eptimomises the agricultural, controlled aspect of his energy. To me he is more the Foliate growth side of the equation whilst the Hunter is more the animalistic Decay/Destruction side of the equation. I would equate Cernunnos and Herne on this animalistic hunter side. IF the Green Man was this overall male energy it would provide us with 3 faces - the Hunter, the Barleycorn and the Foliate.
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Corwen » 04 May 2010, 11:35

Yes these ideas are well known, I studied the idea that Rudra-Shiva resembled Northern European iconography (I hesitate to use the name Cernunnos, but there are many horned figures about) at university nearly 15 years ago. Also the Greco-Roman trio Hades, Poseidon and Zeus would seem to be related to the trios of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva etc, and I think this too is well known.

Perhaps it would be more surprising if there weren't resemblances given that all these peoples, Greeks, Indians, Celts and Norse speak languages with a common root, Indo-European, they all live in similar more or less temperate climates, and above all all live within walking distance of each other! It seems certainly possible that Indian silver-smiths did work on the Gundestrup cauldron, it does appear to show elephants after all... Objects get traded long distances, for example think of the find of a statue of Buddha in a Norse site at Birka!

Whether these resemblances mean that you can postulate something about pre-Indo-European religion I don't know, but it does show that to think cultures develop in isolation from one another is a mistake.
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby green magi » 05 May 2010, 18:01

well rudra and shiva are the same
but from what i can understand,rudra is an emanation of shiva
so yes rudra and cernunnos but the 3 face conection is kinda vague
considering that brahma ,vsnu,most of the goddesses and evan sages were depicted with 3 or more faces,its a metaphor
im glad others noticed this too =]
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Oneonine » 08 Sep 2010, 22:16

Donald Alexander MacKenzie wrote a book Buddhism in Pre-Christian Britain in 1928, in which he compares Cernunnos to Shiva in his manifestation known as Virupaksha, for instance. Many authors have discussed the similarity over the years, so it isn't the case that no one noticed. You aren't alone in this. Check out Wikipedia, the images you've posted are there too, with sources.

Pashupati is another one of Shiva's titles, and means the cattle lord (hence the horns). Shiva is also known as the master of animals, and is often shown surrounded by animals, in the same way the figure from the Gundesrup Cauldron is shown surrounded by them. The pictrure of the Indus Seal from 3000bc which you posted is thought to be Prajapati, the creator god of the Rig-veda and otherwise known to shamans as Lord of the Animals. Apart from the one image of Cernunnos on the cauldron, magnificent as it is, there are only a few other mentions of the name on inscriptions, none of which offer further enlightenment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup ... red_Figure

Cernunnos means the horned one, and may refer to horned god OR a horned headressed shaman. If you look at the stag antlered shaman/god cave paintings which pre-dated indo-european beliefs, then look at post indo-european Cernunnos from the Gundestrup Cauldron. It seems clear to me, and many others, that indo-european beliefs of the pre-celtic peoples, met european shamanic traditions, and melded, giving us the same horned shaman or god as before, but now portrayed in yogic postures and with yogic accoutrements, and is why it is so similar to the yogic postured portrayals of Shiva/Vishnu/Pashupati/Virupaksha. There are many other gods/shaman from many cultures portrayed this way, so a common source in the mix of shamanic and yogi practice seems to be the cause.

The visualilsation of humans morphed with animals is a neuralogical stage the brain goes through, which shaman under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs often experience, and which gives rise to many shamanic beliefs and practices, such as shapeshifting. The horns rising may also be representative of the energies you raise in yogic practices. Which is why this imagery appears in the art representing gods and shaman in many cultures, all around the world. The god/shaman known as Cernunnos, from the cauldron, may just be postured in the same way, going through the same practices, without being an actual representation of Shiva, or any of these other gods or goddesses.

This European stone age cave painting is usually referred to as The Sorceror:-
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This is a picture from an early study on Siberian Shamanism, so the practice was still known into modern times:-
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Herne and the greenman seem to have been connected with Cernunnos only in recent times, perhaps only due to a similarity in the names noticed by 20th century pagans, who connected the two when Cernunnos was shortened to Cern. There's no older connections between Herne and Cernunnos. Herne is connected to vegetation, though, and Cernunnos to animals, so the connection was tenuous, at best.

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby wolf560 » 08 Oct 2010, 22:44

Professor Joseph Campbell in his "Mythos" series, had some interesting things to say.

Rather than trying to tie names of one Deity into another Deity, he uses the "Archtype model". The basic idea is that people are never all that different from each other once you boil it all down to the basics.

Joseph Campbell saw two concurrent theories which I think apply here;
Adolf Bastionne postulated "Recurrent themes between different tribes and cultures"
-----This is the thought that basically we all think the same as a species.
Carl Jung postulated "Archetypes of the Unconscious"
-----This is the thought that basically we all think the same as individuals.

The two basic Deity Archetypes are;
1) The 'Earth-Mother'; "The Nurturing of the Tribe"
"Giver of Life"
-----Prayed to for fertility, health, growth; later for crops and the harvest.
2) The 'Animal-Master'; "Giver of a successful hunt"
"Provider of Food and Shelter"
-----Prayed to for 'permission to take the life' of a needed animal.



The picture of "The Sorceror" was found a long way inside a cave that was not easy to negotiate. Further back in that same cave were found Cave-Bear skulls as well. It is very likely that the cave was used for "Men's Mysteries". Teaching young hunters how to pray and offer correctly to the "God of the Hunt" so that they would be able to succeed.

If you think about the pictures and pictograms in this light.... one might begin to see the similarities in a wholly different light.


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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby JamesNewell » 14 Feb 2014, 18:09

I don't know what to make of it, but a few months ago, I purchased from a catalog a bonded bronze small sculpture of Cernunnos because it sort of called to me, and some years ago, I was fortunate to attend two intensives by Swami Muktananda, who taught energy yoga and the main focus was Shiva. He was doing a kind of mind to mind guidance from in front of the group of students. One interesting detail is that from time to time some assistants sprinkled people with drops of perfume in order to cool them off from the heat of the energy rising, and it worked quite well.

The great Indian emperor Asoka, who after conquering some other nations, repented and decided not to conquer any more, sent Buddhist missionaries to Europe. As far as I know, there isn't a Western record of that, but then the Alexandrian library was destroyed so almost all ancient records were lost. However, it seems likely that some mystical lines in Europe probably included some knowledge from them. As I understand it, some of the Cernunnos knowledge predated Asoka, so Cernunnos wasn't a version of Shiva brought by the missionaries from India. However, the two schools could have interacted somehow.

I will note that there are some lost Indo-European languages on the Western borders of China. They must have been assimilated into Chinese culture. Some Chinese lore may therefore have come from the same Indo-European masters, deep in time, as Druidism. There are indications of hunting magic and healing magic in cave paintings, and there were grave goods at least 50,000 years ago. My feeling is that this hints at the existence of some masters tens of thousands of years ago. However, that is just a guess and I might be wrong.

Jung seems to have had two sides to his theories, given his introduction to the I Ching. One side was for the European intellectual establishment. The other side was for mystics, witches, and so forth.

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Mannan » 10 May 2014, 19:26

The horned warrior (like the stag who adorns his antlers during the rut) is an emblem of doomed continuity. The destroyer-maker.

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Welsh Mythology » 31 Jan 2015, 16:44

There is remarkable similarity across the world. South American tribes also have a Father of the Forest, Father of Beasts.

Reading the first part of the first branch of the Mabinogi in light of this lineage opens up the possibility of a multifaceted interpretation, especially the focus on the relationship between desire and action. The Gundestrup Cernunnos holds both snake and torc, both male and female. Arawn intriduces Pwyll to the opportunity of realising his own relationship to both these fundamentals, and particularly his own male nature. His other guise Gwyn ap Nudd is the hunter who takes dead warriors to where they need to be, their masculine potential fulfiled (if the Pwyll / Hafgan episode is related).

Pashupati, Cernunnos, Lord of Beasts survived well into British medieval folk culture. Christian monks were still complaining about the Welsh locals asking Gwyn ap Nudd permission to enter the woods back in the 14th century. There is a 19th century folk tale from the North shore of the Dyfi that relates the same concept of right to life and death that's explored in Mabinogi branch 1, this time under the observance of the green clad Gwragedd Annwfn (Wives of Annwfn). R. Lowe Thompson's History of the Devil (although betraying the bias of his time) makes a good argument for the Horned God going underground post Christian extremism of the medieval period. That means he was still called to consciously not so long ago

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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Selene » 31 Jan 2015, 18:41

Welsh Mythology, we do have a few stag emoticons. Click "View more smilies" to see the full selection; there are three that I spotted on a cursory glance through a few minutes ago. I'd post them here, but I'm using my iPad and the vagaries of the touchscreen won't let me post from any but the small set to the right of the reply box.
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Welsh Mythology » 31 Jan 2015, 22:55

ha! great

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Thanks Selene. Should read the small print more often.
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Re: cernunnos and shiva

Postby Selene » 01 Feb 2015, 04:30

There's at least one more--a silhouette of a stag's head--in there somewhere.
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