A Question....

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treegod
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Re: A Question....

Postby treegod » 24 Jan 2012, 10:59

Interesting dream.

"As it gets closer I begin to see suspended within it thousands and thousands of pictures large and small but, try as I may, I cannot see what the pictures are of."
That's interesting part of it. The "image" of Druidry as a whole is something beyond imagining, I suppose.

But to be honest I was more impressed with your "Social values, Education, Family values" post, quite close to what I think too.

Forget reconstructionists, revivalists, dreams, correspondence courses, Ancient Roman and Greek writers, Wheel of the Year, because Druidry is in the service we give to the world and in the quality of our relationships. :)

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Re: A Question....

Postby Aemilius » 24 Jan 2012, 11:38

treegod "But to be honest I was more impressed with your "Social values, Education, Family values" post, quite close to what I think too."

Thanks for that treegod.... so, how would you answer those questions?

(Edit - whoops! I see you already did (sort of) in that last post)
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Al Hakim
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Re: A Question....

Postby Al Hakim » 26 Jan 2012, 21:01

Hi Aemilius,

your question matched my own doubts. How can a modern group rely on a base of texts written by ancient authors who were not historians (in our meaning) but "story-tellers)? If it is true that they worshipped their ancestors, sitting in a necropolis makes sense.
That certain geometric forms like circles or triangles were considered as holy, I can accept, too. But my latter acceptance already contains a certain romantic understanding of the prehistoric and ancient world as conveyed by modern movies and fiction stories.

But there are a few ancient beliefs that have survived: Judaism, Christianism, Islam. They are based on books that are 2 or more thousand years old. But they got revamped. All believes have to give answers to up-to-date questions if the wish to keep existing. Why should it be impossible to give the "old druidry" a modern touch?

I think that the individual desire in humans did not change a lot during the last millenia. So, when they prayed for wealth or a nice female I can do the same even using similar methods. The wording may have changed but the underlying ideas and needs did not. We will see if it is working.

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Re: A Question....

Postby Oakapple » 27 Jan 2012, 06:27

To me the word "Druid" has a resonance, it conjures up those images. Of the wild man of the woods, the healer, the wise one, magician, story teller, teacher. Someone who has knowledge of herbs, stars, history,folklore etc etc.
The word is well known by ,if you like, "normal" people. It doesnt have the negative image sometimes given to the word witch.
I'm afraid that for me "The New Order Of The White Parrakeet" only brings the idea of a group of white parrot-like birds. Sorry!
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Re: A Question....

Postby DJ Droood » 27 Jan 2012, 12:46

I'm afraid that for me "The New Order Of The White Parrakeet" only brings the idea of a group of white parrot-like birds. Sorry!
could make it work...say it was our totum animal...

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Re: A Question....

Postby Aemilius » 27 Jan 2012, 16:28

Al Hakim "If it is true that they worshipped their ancestors, sitting in a necropolis makes sense."

Well, yes, that does make sense if one simply dismisses what's been written. However, if we ascribe any credibility at all to the notion that they both believed in reincarnation and embraced Pythagorean doctrine, that would seem to preclude any serious consideration of ancestor worship as a Druid practice, since in that case it is we who are the ancestors.

Al Hakim "Why should it be impossible to give the "old druidry" a modern touch?"

I think you're right, it shouldn't be impossible to give the "old druidry" a "modern touch", but if too many "modern touches" are given so that the modern practice no longer even remotely resembles the original model then there is no longer any need to hold on to the word "Druid" as a namesake either, hence the "New Order of the White Parrakeet" remark.

oakapple "To me the word "Druid" has a resonance, it conjures up those images. Of the wild man of the woods, the healer, the wise one, magician, story teller, teacher. Someone who has knowledge of herbs, stars, history,folklore etc etc."

Right, that sounds like the current perception or stereotype to me too.

oakapple "The word is well known by ,if you like, "normal" people. It doesnt have the negative image sometimes given to the word witch."

So, are saying you're actually a Wiccan that has simply replaced the word "Witch" with the word "Druid" to avoid a negative image?

oakapple "I'm afraid that for me "The New Order Of The White Parrakeet" only brings the idea of a group of white parrot-like birds."

Me too!

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treegod "Forget reconstructionists, revivalists, dreams, correspondence courses, Ancient Roman and Greek writers, Wheel of the Year, because Druidry is in the service we give to the world and in the quality of our relationships."

Good idea that, and we might as well forget the word Druid while we're at it as the more generic "Good World Citizen" describes all that quite nicely.
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Re: A Question....

Postby Oakapple » 27 Jan 2012, 17:47

You could be an excellent world citizen without the myth , legend and magic associated with the word Druid.
Nothing wrong with the "curent perception" of "Druid" to me - thats why I use it!
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Re: A Question....

Postby andromeda » 27 Jan 2012, 19:24

I think I get the problem. Druidry is not like main stream religion where you have a set text that allegedly has been given by a prophet, it is something you do that qualifies you as a druid, not the attire, not the writtings, not the ceremonial. It is a way of life

For example take what July White and Graeme K Talboys say in their book " The Path through the Forest, a Druid guidebook ":

Page 87

Druids do not have a sacred text. In common with other pagan religions they derive their spiritual inspiration and instruction from the natural world. That is why the Druid Way remains constantly connected with the now and the here: that is why is relevant.

There is however, a great body of written work - known as the matter of Britain - which has within it many of the teachings and beliefs of ancestral Celts...

End of quote

Druidry is not about who said what, it is about direct engagement with nature and one does that in whichever way is suitable for oneself, all the rest can add to being a druid but it does not make you a druid in the heart and only then real contact with the ancestors can happen IMHO

This is why a person from any nominated religion can be a druid as well, it is an attitude and not a doctrine as far as I have understood

:wink:
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Re: A Question....

Postby Merlyn » 27 Jan 2012, 21:21

They all have roots, branches and a trunk. Some bear fruit, nuts or berries, They are all trees, yet no two are exactly the same.
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ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
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Re: A Question....

Postby Aemilius » 27 Jan 2012, 22:48

All good worldviews.... Just having a bit of fun with the picture and the Parrakeets and all that.... Emile
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Al Hakim
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Re: A Question....

Postby Al Hakim » 28 Jan 2012, 21:20

Aemilius,

your "birdy comparison" is entertaining. Why not call them "hooded penguins"? Unfortunately, a photo taken from any context can lead to misinterpretations. Children in their school uniforms waiting at a school bus stop will probably never be misunderstood as small militia persons because we know about the circumstances.
Similarly, many words do evoke a certain image in our minds. If I mention a steak you would (hopefully) not have the vision of a piece of chalk writing on a blackboard. Thus, the term "druid" has already gained a certain connotation, even if that connation was formed by Asterix and his Miraculix.
Following that idea the word "druid" itself has become part of the modernisation. In other words: It had to fend the bad connotations off like sacrificing humans. Unfortunately, that habit has become a bit out-of-fashion nowadays. So the bad image was replaced with the good image of a wise and just person.
Shall it no stay an image, we must live it. I think people like it because it considerably varies from the standard politician, or clergyman. That makes me bold enough to state that the modern world needs "druids".

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Re: A Question....

Postby Merlyn » 29 Jan 2012, 16:30

Hi Aemilius,
It's been a good meet & greet thread, sorting out and looking at a number of views. The treasure that your family has and the art, is amazing.

To the "question":
How have the noble Druids come to be found worshipping among the grand stones of a strange monument of unknown origins in the midst of a rotting necropolis?
It has been a question deliberated from many views in many deep discussions. What is the real direct link to druidism and the course that is the OBOD? From my own personal account, many have been frustrated when finding some of the things discussed in this thread: tradition that is a mixed reformed version of druidism, an end result that in truth does not directly support or even really give one a place in culture or society that resembles what the Drui of old were.

Some expectations were perhaps misinformed, not properly researched or misrepresented. When asked: Does completing a "course in druidism" by any order today, create a druid in the sense of the tradition?...really.. This then has to go a step further, and to the question: Is there a place for druids in today's world? Would anyone recognize or respect the place of a druid as they do a priest, doctor or other talented and wise person? Perhaps, however not by "Druid" in name as they once were.

To an answer:
In most ways, one cannot be respected as a druid unless we walk the walk, truly have the balance in mind-body, expert wisdom of the natural world, and the ability nurtured in us to truly be of benefit, able to not only communicate druidism but also be a part of the tradition, live it and pass it on. Lost as the tradition was and is, the druid renaissance is in an infant stage, many ideas of what it is, was, could and should be.

I think some people do reach a level that could be recognized as "being a druid" if not in name, by action and ability. We live in a time when cultures mix, borders are lost and the once rich heritage has been lost with it all. An order like the OBOD strives to begin teaching people at least how to be Drui within their own lives, for those who do respect anyone with the values Drui have and it is thus a start, one our world badly needs.

Are we there yet?
Not really, however we are on a journey which could possibly be realized.
In small ways it is being realized, "as a religion" or as a spiritual way. In other ways the OBOD has changed its methods: Giving the trend towards an oral tradition with a few CDs and thus at least making it possible to hear the lessons in the traditional language, knowing what it sounds like, something that was not possible before, as one example. And as example, the entire way and lessons have been corrected, expanded and given more tradition, more accurate history and language.

Should we abandon calling it druidry for the sake of a better name for what it is at this point? -or- should we continue to strive, adapt and become as authentic, realized, actual and contributing as a real Druid order and stay the course?

I think the latter, and I know at some point we do have to remember the roots of druidism and respect them possibly more. The time of adapting druidism as it was in the 70s, to create an acceptable way as a compromise may melt away as things progress. (In many ways this has been and is happening in the OBOD and other orders) This will, as it has, see its way as the needed few, and then more and more, become inspired and find way to do so.
My view on it all anyway, :thinking:

Cheers,
Merlyn /|\
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

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treegod
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Re: A Question....

Postby treegod » 30 Jan 2012, 11:23

treegod "But to be honest I was more impressed with your "Social values, Education, Family values" post, quite close to what I think too."

Thanks for that treegod.... so, how would you answer those questions?

(Edit - whoops! I see you already did (sort of) in that last post)
I've been out of the loop for a while, so to speak.

Druidry is a function, in the sense of "Good World Citizen" if you like. It's about service and responsiblity. I wrote something a while ago called ther Three Functions of Druidry (go to http://thegroveofquotes.wordpress.com and look at the articles below the title. I generalised the druid's function to spirituality, education and politics, which is my interpretation of the image of the Ancient Druids, who were priests of their time, teachers and also involved with their time's politics, within tribes and between tribes. I don't seek to recreate or revive their traditions but reinterpret these functions for modern times.

Since being a druid just means being a "Good World Citizen", then why not just drop the word druid, since being a good world citizen is something for everyone, not just Druids? I think it also has to do with imagination and archetypal imagery, that maybe a generic "Good World Citizen" doesn't always convey. It's an opportunity for artistic expression and connecting with archetypal forces in a non-rational and primeval way. The image of the druids as I see them is an important mythological vehicle to convey the values of a "Good World Citizen", one of many in this world.

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Re: A Question....

Postby Aemilius » 31 Jan 2012, 02:13

Nicely done treegod.... Emile
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Re: A Question....

Postby Merlyn » 31 Jan 2012, 03:37

The image of the druids as I see them is an important mythological vehicle to convey the values of a "Good World Citizen", one of many in this world.

Well said :applause:
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

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Re: A Question....

Postby DJ Droood » 31 Jan 2012, 12:42

The image of the druids as I see them is an important mythological vehicle to convey the values of a "Good World Citizen", one of many in this world.

Well said :applause:
As far as archetypical images go, I think the "Good World Citizen" works...true or not, I conjure up an image of the druids trudging from village to village, tribe to tribe, even out into the greater world, gathering and spreading knowledge and wisdom, and generally trying to maintain peace.

I think we do have to be careful about retrofitting modern or common values onto the old dudes though..to say "tolerance" was druidic, or "forgiveness" is a bit of a stretch.
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Re: A Question....

Postby Merlyn » 31 Jan 2012, 14:43

Well put DJ,
Today we are facing a time where choices run very large, and the options, critical.
"A controlled collapse" is perhaps the best we can hope for in many ways. Seeking the values and the ability to see as the Drui did is at least "real" and practical to the goals we really need to set for ourselves. The delusional apocalyptic scenarios are all a kind of "cop-out" to keep business as usual, and the clinging to "human rights" is the only thing stopping the power grabs we may well see as resources become depleted and large oil companies continue to abate any progress away from dependence on a way of life soon to fail.

Resourcefulness, insight and good judgment are scarce in our world today in the very places they are needed most. If one cannot change things from the top down, then we must begin these needed changes from the bottom up... A good world citizen or "druid" may be the scout (trail blazer) of tomorrow..

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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

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Re: A Question....

Postby skydove » 31 Jan 2012, 14:53

.........and start with ourselves.
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Re: A Question....

Postby Oakapple » 31 Jan 2012, 16:22

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Al Hakim
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Re: A Question....

Postby Al Hakim » 12 Feb 2012, 21:56

Resourcefulness, insight and good judgment are scarce in our world today in the very places they are needed most. If one cannot change things from the top down, then we must begin these needed changes from the bottom up... A good world citizen or "druid" may be the scout (trail blazer) of tomorrow.
Treegod and Merlyn,
you made important points. I do understand Aemilius' concerns about the druidic order, but appreciate your practical approach. There is so much evil in the world, numerous corrupt politicians and too strong lobbyists forming an unholy alliance. It is necessary indeed to arise buttom-up, and why should it not be the modern druid to initiate and guide such a process?


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