Do You Believe In Magic?

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DJ Droood
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 30 Mar 2012, 19:13

That's it... Eezee Peezee.... and after awhile all my spare change adds up to the amount necessary for my upcoming trip to Ireland.
It has taken me about a year to collect the $1,100.00 I need but it was oh so worth it.'
That is a pretty reasonable cost for a trip to Ireland wolf!...are you planning on sleeping in the rough in long borrows?? :warm:
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Lily » 30 Mar 2012, 21:10

are you planning on sleeping in the rough in long borrows?? :warm:
careful there. The Sidhe might spirit you away, only to re-emerge 7 or 100 years into the future even.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 30 Mar 2012, 21:13

are you planning on sleeping in the rough in long borrows?? :warm:
careful there. The Sidhe might spirit you away, only to re-emerge 7 or 100 years into the future even.
Well, at least if he disappears then we'll have an idea as to where he went...
“So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Heddwen » 30 Mar 2012, 22:02

are you planning on sleeping in the rough in long borrows?? :warm:
careful there. The Sidhe might spirit you away, only to re-emerge 7 or 100 years into the future even.
Well, at least if he disappears then we'll have an idea as to where he went...
Done it myself and lived to tell the tale...

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 31 Mar 2012, 07:18

“So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic? (Yes)

Postby George Knowles » 31 Mar 2012, 17:08

Hail Ho Guy's

Merry we meet

I am fairly new to this notice board and to Druidry. I come from a solitary eclectic pagan background flavoured with basic Witchcraft and Wiccan leanings. This topic of belief in Magic has caught my attention. Some years ago I wrote an article called "What is Magick"? I wrote it from a Wiccan point of view and wonder if it holds true to your Druidic view?? I would appreciate your opinions:

What is Magick?

Written and compiled by George Knowles.

Power / Other Associations / Meditation / Visualisation / Training / The Self (Grounding and Centering).

Mention magic to most people and they immediately start thinking about Wicked Witches, Wizards and Sorcerers conjuring up evil sounding spells and poisons from boiling bubbling cauldrons sat on blazing smoking fires. Others imagine comedians on stage with funny pointy hats and black and white wands. Still others think of Illusionists making people disappear then re-appear from boxes and other contrived stage props.

Since time immemorial magic has been used in witchcraft, and many myths and evil associations have been attributed to its use. Here I shall concentrate on real magic and how it is perceived by witches of today. Not everybody agrees and there are many theories on the subject, so this is my theory, based on my opinion and my experiences. At the end of the day you shall have to form your own.

So what is magic really? (Or “magick” as those in the craft would term it). How, what, where and when should it be used? These are the questions I aim to answer here.

First let us destroy the myths of wizards throwing around lightening bolts doing battle with evil sorcerers, and all other such nonsense’s. Magick is a force utilising power, wisdom and knowledge. It is both more and less powerful than the ignorant can suppose. Magick can only be used to change the changeable, for instance - it can be used to cure a sickness but not to replace a lost limb. Magick is not a power to be used in place of our other powers, meaning those of our physical, mental or emotional abilities. Nor is it a crutch for the weak or an ego-boost for the inadequate. Magick is an art and skill unto itself. It needs to be learned then trained to develop, and that takes time and patience.

If we believe that everything and all originate from the same source, then the ability for using magick must be retained within us all. Magick then is a forgotten art passed down through aeons of reincarnations and it resides inside us all. Therefore magick is a skill that needs to be re-learned and trained if it's to be used well, effectively and wisely.

In modern days magick is used not only in ritual ceremonies, but also on a daily bases during spiritual communication with the Goddess and God. It is used daily for healing purposes and perhaps more frequently for personal purposes like reducing negativity, protection and improving the self. It can also be used for many other purposes as determined by the individual while bearing in mind “The three fold law”.

Power

Magick in essence is the use and control of natural energies or power to produce and effect needed change. There are three basic sources of natural energy or power used: Personal Power, Earth Power and Divine Power.

Personal Power:

Is the life force that sustains us and protects our earthly existence. It's the power that resides within our own bodies; some may call it "willpower". As we go about our daily business we are constantly absorbing energy, be it from the sun during the day or the moon during the night or the food and drink we consume. This energy we store and release during movement, exercise, sex, and even through our emotional states. This we all do quite naturally.

In magick we learn to harness and arouse this personal power, infuse it with a particular purpose, release it and direct it towards it's goal.

Earth Power:

Is the power that resides within our planet and its natural products. Such things as: Stones, Trees, Wind, Fire, Water, Crystals, Oils and Scents. All these things and more possess unique powers and give out specific energies that can be harnessed and used during ritual and magick.

Hold a stone in the palm of your hand (receptive hand), concentrate on your hand and visualise the stone. Feel it's force tingling? A crystal can be charged and then held against the forehead to clear up migraine or headaches with it's healing properties. Like-wise herbs and oils can be charged then rubbed onto the body to effect internal changes. These are just a few examples of earth power and it's uses.

Divine Power:

Is spiritual power, that which is charged and channelled by the Goddess and the God. Personal power and earth power are both manifestations of divine power. Divine power is the force of life, the source of everything, the power of the universe that created existence.

To use divine power the Goddess and God need to be invoked to bless the magick being prepared, this is normally done inside a properly constructed circle (see Circle Casting). For instance during ritual, personal power may be used to effect some personal change, then directed to the deities asking for a specific need to be met.

Other Associations

Magick is not just about the use of power; one cannot just stand up, call out to the Goddess and God and demand that magick be done - "So Be It". A lot of work is involved in preparation for the use of magick. Once a need for the use of magick has been identified, careful consideration needs to be given to other associations if a successful outcome is to be achieved. Other associations cover such things as - Time, when should the magick be performed. Tools, which tools are best employed for the task. Then we need to consider co-ordinating - Colours, Candles, and Incenses. All these influences when combined together increase the power and lend added effect to the spell or rite.

I have listed correspondence tables for Magickal Days, Candles, Colours and Incense on other pages and quoted them in the paragraphs below.

Magickal Days:

When planning magical workings, consideration needs to be given as to when the work needs to be performed for best effect. We need to ascertain the best time or day for when to perform it. Days have their own magickal associations, which are similar to and connected with the other tables. Thus creating harmony during ritual and generating increased power when all are working together. Days in general are associated with and influenced by the Sun and six of the Planets. (see Magickal Days).

Tools:

As with most other religions, tools are used in Wicca to aid and enhance ritual. Tools have no powers within themselves save for that which we pass through them, though they do have powerful symbolic significance’s, which help us to focus our will and concentration. Tools are used to invoke deities, banish negativity, and direct our energies though touch and intention. Thus we need to know and understand the properties and symbolism of our tools in order to use them properly and correctly. (see Tools).

Candles:

Candles have long been used in association with magick, as indeed they have been adopted and used by many other religions for spiritual communication.

Candle magick is probably the oldest and simplest form of ritual magick still performed today. Ever since fire was discovered, the naked flame has been regarded as sacred. In ancient times lighted touches were used to invoke the Goddess and Gods. Today we symbolise those acts by utilising candles. The naked flame remains the finest and easiest means of focusing in on power and energy.

The use of differently coloured candles symbolises the nature of intent and ultimately can influence the outcome of a particular spell. Coloured candles are therefore used to pinpoint our focus on a particular deity or planetary association. We need to understand the colour properties and other associations of candles to make our magick work for best effect. (see Candles).

Colours:

Colour plays a powerful role in ritual Witchcraft and Magick. Colours are carefully considered and assigned to all aspects of spell making, ritual magick and festivals.

Colours have symbolic associations representing occult powers, and have their own energy frequencies that emanate specific influences. Careful consideration needs to be given to colour associations when used with Candles, Clothing, Symbols, Deities influences, Planetary influences, Causes and Effects, Zodiacal influences and Magickal Days. (see Colours).

Incense:

Incense like candles have long had associations with magick, and like candles are used commonly by many other religions. The use of incense in witchcraft is threefold:

(1) It conditions the mind by stimulating our senses of smell.

(2) In connection with spells, it draws down the spirits through its magickal association with the elements of Air.

(3) According to ancient beliefs, when a spell is done. It raises the spell up into the ether and sends it on its way.

In magick, the type of incense used needs to correspond with the nature of the spell being worked. Most spells require incense associated with a particular planet or deity. Many types of incense are used for their purification and cleansing properties during ritual. (see Incense).

There are of course other associations and considerations I haven't mentioned. These include zodiacal associations and planetary associations; even hourly associations can have an effect. But then how far would you wish to take it? Like anything else you can go overboard. Consider that by trying to include everything in your preparation, would you ever have time for the actual working? It's often been said that the most effective magick is simple magick. Leave the complicated stuff for the adept's or until such time as you have been trained and gained considerable experience.

Magick then is a process in which we work closely and in harmony with the divine power source. This is envisaged as the Goddess and God with whom we communicate through the use of earth power and personal power. Magick begins within us. By learning to harness and control our personal power, so then can we use magick to produce and affect needed change for others and ourselves.

The Mind

Magick begins within us, its already there, an intuitive knowledge and instinctive ability passed down to us through aeons of regenerated reincarnations, it sits there deep in the back of the mind waiting to be used. The mind needs to be trained in the techniques of meditation, visualisation, concentration and imagination if once again we desire to use these forgotten abilities.

Meditation:

Given the pace of life in society today and the stresses and worries that go with it, it’s difficult for most of us to gain relief and let go of our cares and woes. Meditation is one way to induce total relaxation and normally precedes any act of magick or ritual. Let’s face it; we cannot begin to work with magick, which requires our full concentration, if we are worried about mundane everyday things. Meditation is also the quiet time in which we release our hold on the conscious mind and confront our inner-self, or through our psychic awareness communicate with the deities.

Choose your time and place with care, ideally somewhere peaceful and quiet, and where you won’t be disturbed. Perhaps the last thing at night after all has gone to bed, or early in the morning before the household arises. Light a candle in a darkened room (White or blue symbolises spirituality and meditation, see Candles.), and burn appropriate incense if you wish (Lotus, Myrrh or Passionflower may help but use what feels right for you, see Incense). Sit comfortably in a chair and take a moment to savour your surroundings, the lighted candle glowing softly in the darkness, the scent of the incense stimulating the senses, feel and listen to the peace and quiet.

Relax as much as you can, empty the mind and think of nothing, breathe deeply in through the nose and out through the mouth, gradually your breathing rate will slow down. For those who haven’t tried this exercise before, care needs to be taken at this stage in case you fall asleep. If you feel sleep coming on, snap out of it and start again. As your breathing rate slows down and while inhaling, use your imagination to visualise incoming peace and tranquillity, while exhaling, visualise your hate, anger, tensions and worries leaving the body and dispersing. Feel yourself relaxing more into the chair.

Now we can open up the conscious mind allowing it to become receptive and alert. Your psychic mind will also open and awareness will grow each time you practice. Call out to the Gods and talk with them, discus your troubles and ask for advice, or look into yourself and see what you can find. Once you have finished meditating, it might be a good idea to record your findings, the thoughts, images and sensations you experienced, so you can pick up on it again the next time you practice.

Visualisation:

Is probably the most important aspect of any magickal working. Its what we use to guide and direct the power and energy raised during ritual and while using magick. We all have the ability to visualise, but most people do so randomly. Perhaps when sitting in the car while stuck in a traffic jam, the mind takes flight and begins to wonder? Or when sat in a classroom during a boring lecture, we might start thinking about favourite things, seeing them in our minds eye while the teacher drones on in the background? This is random visualisation.

For use in magick we need to train and control this ability, so that we can see, hold and shape whatever it is we want to see, and then direct our powers and energies towards it. For instance I may want to protect my home from intruders. In which case I would raise personal power while holding an image of the home in my mind, then visualise an energy field encircling the house sealing the doors and windows. Outside the house I may imagine the police apprehending intruders. I then direct my raised power and energise the visualisation, thus bringing it into manifestation and leaving the protection in place to work its magick.

This then is the art of visualisation control, the ability to see in the mind what isn’t there, to hold a non-existent image or happening and shaping it into being what you want it to be. Visualisation is not “the power” or “the energy”, nor does it create it on its own, more that it directs raised power and energy to its final conclusion.

Training:

Visualisation in itself may sound easy and it is while sat in a chair in a relaxed state of mind. But visualising is only part of the process of working magick. The difficult part is to retain your visualisation with your eyes open, stood in the centre of your circle with your hands and mind occupied in manipulating your tools and other tasks. It takes a little training and practise to perfect this technique.

You could start by incorporating a few simple exercises into your daily meditation practise. While still in your relaxed state with your eyes closed, visualise a still object, something familiar to you like an apple, a toothbrush, or something equally simple. Hold the image as long as you can, allow nothing else to interfere, and then let it go. When you can hold the image without interruption for five minutes, try the same exercise but with your eyes open. This is a little harder but practise daily and it will come.

Once you’ve accomplished this, we start again. Visualise the same image, only this time play with it. Turn it around, see it grow or expand, maybe change its colours and textures, or try to see it from different angles. When you can do this, try it again but with your eyes open. As you become more proficient, you might want to incorporate it into your active life, try doing it while occupied with mundane things, like when cooking dinner or washing up afterwards. See how long you can hold the image in your mind’s eye while washing the plates and dishes.

The final exercise is to visualise a non-existent image or something you have never seen before. Use your imagination to create something, something meaningful to you perhaps. I use a silver white unicorn with wings, riding down a sunbeam into a picturesque forest glade. Whatever you use, see it as a real thing in your mind, make it so real you could almost touch and feel it. Hold the image as long as you can, then let it go.

As with the other exercises, we need to be able to see the same image with our eyes open and while occupied with other things. When you can do this, you’re well on your way to using magick.

The Self (Grounding and Centering).

Finally a note of caution to anyone new to using magick. Magick begins within the self. Its already there in the back of the mind where it's tied up with our energy and mental facilities. When working with magick you can be working with some powerful energy and forces. Repeated or excessive use of magick without proper care and attention to the self, deplete's the self's resources and can lead to debilitating personal health difficulties, such as mental exhausion, headaches and migraines etc.

To combat these difficulties, witches use a technique called "Grounding and Centering". Before any ritual, magical working or divinatory activity, a witch will first 'Ground and Center' to booster the self's resources by infusing 'Personal Power' with 'Earth Power' using the techniques already mentioned above. This technique can also be used to calm fear, anxiety and agitation.

To do this, plant your feet firmly on the ground (some people prefer to do this bare footed, standing on bare earth or grass, but it can also be done seated and regardless of where one is or how one is dressed). Close your eyes, blank your mind and steady yourself. Inhale a slow deep breath and release it slowly while visualizing any retained negative energy or influences flowing out of the body through your feet and dispersing harmlessly into the ground. Inhale again while visualizing positive 'Earth' energy being drawn up into the body throught the feet. Repeat this process untill you feel that all your negativity has been released and the incoming energy has touch and infused all your body's chakra points (these are the seven zones within the body that retain energy, the subject of another lesson, but later). You should now be feeling calm and energized to commence with your magical workings.

Once the rite or working is complete, repeat this excersize to disperse any residual energy. Most witches then follow up with a 'Cake and Ale' ritual, food and drink to replace and replenish spent energy.

Once your work is done and all is completed, a period of self-analyses should follow. Carefully monitor the subject of your magic and record your experiences in your 'Book of Shadows'. This will provide you valuable information for future workings.

End.

Sources

The late Scott Cunningham and his book - WICCA, A Guide For The Solitary Practitioner, inspired a lot of the above writing.
Encyclopedia of Wicca & Witchcraft - By Raven Grimassi
To Stir a Magick Cauldron - By Silver Ravenwolf
Witchcraft for tomorrow - By Doreen Valiente
Princlples of Wicca - By Vivianne Crowley
Candle Magic - By Phillip Cooper


Best Wishes.

Merry we part.

George Knowles (Man in Black).
E-mail - George@controverscial.com
or - themaninblackuk2001@yahoo.com
Website - http://www.controverscial.com

Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall not be disappointed.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby wolf560 » 31 Mar 2012, 19:31

That's it... Eezee Peezee.... and after awhile all my spare change adds up to the amount necessary for my upcoming trip to Ireland.
It has taken me about a year to collect the $1,100.00 I need but it was oh so worth it.'
That is a pretty reasonable cost for a trip to Ireland wolf!...are you planning on sleeping in the rough in long borrows?? :warm:
The $1,100 actually includes airfare, hotels (B&B's) and a rental car.
We are responsible for lunch and dinner for nine days... and of course "the odd trinket or three"
.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 01 Apr 2012, 04:45

The $1,100 actually includes airfare, hotels (B&B's) and a rental car.
We are responsible for lunch and dinner for nine days... and of course "the odd trinket or three"

Great deal! Have fun...you can't vacay in Cuba for a week for that, and it is a lot closer and cheaper. (oh wait, you aren't allowed to vacay in Cuba at all...haha)

And George, welcome to the board! Your conception of magic is very well detailed and articulated here. This board has lots of nooks and cranies, and this particualr corner is usually reserved for "skeptical enquiry" , but rather than being a tiresome bore, I will just point out that it seems to be built on a base of faith in the supernatural (in gods and reencarnation) and any objections I have to that could probably be found in my ealier posts in this thread. I would guess, though, that the majority of druids on this board who employ magic probably use a system similar and complimentary to what you present here. What are you drinking, I will buy the next round! :gulp:
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby George Knowles » 01 Apr 2012, 13:52

George, welcome to the board! Your conception of magic is very well detailed and articulated here. This board has lots of nooks and cranies, and this particualr corner is usually reserved for "skeptical enquiry" , but rather than being a tiresome bore, I will just point out that it seems to be built on a base of faith in the supernatural (in gods and reencarnation) and any objections I have to that could probably be found in my ealier posts in this thread. I would guess, though, that the majority of druids on this board who employ magic probably use a system similar and complimentary to what you present here. What are you drinking, I will buy the next round! :gulp:[/quote]



Hail Ho DJ

Merry we meet

Cool dude, mines a Stella cheers :-)

Best Wishes.

Merry we part.

George Knowles (Man in Black).
E-mail - George@controverscial.com
or - themaninblackuk2001@yahoo.com
Website - http://www.controverscial.com

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 02 Apr 2012, 07:29

And George, welcome to the board! Your conception of magic is very well detailed and articulated here. This board has lots of nooks and cranies, and this particualr corner is usually reserved for "skeptical enquiry" , but rather than being a tiresome bore, I will just point out that it seems to be built on a base of faith in the supernatural (in gods and reencarnation) and any objections I have to that could probably be found in my ealier posts in this thread.
I'll behave than as well. I would prefer a different Belgian beer though.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 02 Apr 2012, 13:56

I'll behave than as well. I would prefer a different Belgian beer though.
:gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Certainly no need to "behave"...I like to think of Skeptical Druid as one of the few, if only, tables in the DHP where one can say what is on one's mind, with the caveat that someone may ask you to explain your point of view....or say "That sounds like bullocks to me."

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Mountainheart » 02 Apr 2012, 15:43

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
That sounds like bullocks to me...

:whistle:

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 02 Apr 2012, 16:28

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
That sounds like bullocks to me...

:whistle:
yea, well all our opinions are equally valid, so what is left but lager sampling?
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 02 Apr 2012, 19:35

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
That sounds like bullocks to me...

:whistle:
*stands on her Beer Snob Soapbox*

Agreed. Weisse beer and bocks mean Germany wins! Second would be Trappist beer, and they're primarily Belgian.
“So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 02 Apr 2012, 19:36

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
That sounds like bullocks to me...

:whistle:
yea, well all our opinions are equally valid, so what is left but lager sampling?
I take my beer snobbery induced comment back, you are a genius!
“So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?” - Neil deGrasse Tyson

“Recognize that the very molecules that make up your body, the atoms that construct the molecules, are traceable to the crucibles that were once the centers of high mass stars that exploded their chemically rich guts into the galaxy, enriching pristine gas clouds with the chemistry of life. So that we are all connected to each other biologically, to the earth chemically and to the rest of the universe atomically. That’s kinda cool! That makes me smile and I actually feel quite large at the end of that. It’s not that we are better than the universe, we are part of the universe. We are in the universe and the universe is in us.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby wolf560 » 02 Apr 2012, 23:12

Count me in on the Lager tasting, but I'll withhold all my voting on 'best beer' until we've sampled them all..


...and that might take a few years.... :gulp:
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 03 Apr 2012, 08:47

And I think the Dutch make some very nice lagers.
That sounds like bullocks to me...

:whistle:
*stands on her Beer Snob Soapbox*

Agreed. Weisse beer and bocks mean Germany wins! Second would be Trappist beer, and they're primarily Belgian.
OK I feel a challenge coming on. Weiss Beer and Bock beer are also available here in decent quality. I will join the Eastern neighbours in their October Feste so I will try to compare.

Trapists are nice, I agree. Although I am more prone to the blonds.

Sorry to drag the comparison further, but each season has its beers and tastes. I like a good white beer on the beach in summer, but in the fall a decent Bock. I think the tour the beer should be prolonged.

Personally I will skip the Pilsners, like Stella, Heineke, Amstel etc. Unless it is a Grolsch.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 03 Apr 2012, 14:58

I knew I left one out! I also like Bocks, especially the ones Shiner brews. I hate piss beer, and want to punch the idiots I encounter at the bar making jokes about how it's Naturday. I don't like beers with a smokey taste. I agree about the seasonal flavor differences so Sam Adams is my favorite mainstream beer because they're not afraid to try new things. I really like hard cider as well, and prefer Hornsby or Woodchuck. I'm too snooty to drink Mike's.

I also love mead, and am always having to do a good bit of leg work to find any since most of these barbarians think fine dining requires Arbor Mist.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 03 Apr 2012, 17:41

The American market needs testing as well, allas. :gulp:

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 03 Apr 2012, 18:48

The American market needs testing as well, allas. :gulp:
limited testing at best, I'm afraid. ..I do like Sam Adams
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