So, about 9/11....

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Aemilius
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 03 Dec 2014, 20:20

I refer you to the description of the forum "A forum for the discussion of heuristic questions relating to Druidry using verifiable methods. Fo-fúair!"

What's the relationship to druidry?
Is the seeking out of truth no longer considered Druidic?
I didn't say that. I asked what 9/11 has to do with druidry.
Then what did you say? You seem to imply at least (open to correction) that certain kinds of truth, like discussing 9/11, are "un-Druidic" in some way. I've answered your question as best I can, I'm seeking the truth.... did you have an on topic remark to add?
Last edited by Aemilius on 04 Dec 2014, 06:22, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 03 Dec 2014, 20:23

Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 03 Dec 2014, 20:25

Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
Use quotes.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 03 Dec 2014, 20:40

Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
Use quotes.
Like this?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 03 Dec 2014, 20:43

Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
Use quotes.
Like this?
No.... quote whatever it was I said that you're responding to, otherwise no response.
Last edited by Aemilius on 03 Dec 2014, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 03 Dec 2014, 21:05

That doesn't answer my question. Where do you ask for facts?
Sorry about the lack of clarity, but ike I said, I didn't think I needed to. If you need me to spell it out for you though I will right here, I'm asking for facts.... Got any that support your opinion?
Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 03 Dec 2014, 21:11

That doesn't answer my question. Where do you ask for facts?
Sorry about the lack of clarity, but ike I said, I didn't think I needed to. If you need me to spell it out for you though I will right here, I'm asking for facts.... Got any that support your opinion?
Which opinion? That I don't believe in conspiracy theories? Or that I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
Either, both.... take your pick.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 03 Dec 2014, 21:32

Facts are sacred, opinions are free.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby DJ Droood » 03 Dec 2014, 21:59

Aemilius, I get the impression that you are just bursting at the seams, waiting for the opportunity to present *your* facts on 9/11, so why not just have at it? Throw out your data and see who bites....this thread has been a sorry waste of 10 minutes so far....
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby PeteBranduir » 03 Dec 2014, 23:10

Aemilius, some advice. If you come in to any forum which you don't run and attempt to force a group of people renowned for differing opinions and views into doing things exactly your way, you're more likely to alienate people than make friends, or even spark a good discussion.

Perhaps try following your question with your own personal opinion based on whatever facts you want and it's more likely to attract the right kind of discussion.

For my part, I honestly don't think it matters anymore. This may sound harsh but isn't to say anything of the suffering of the victims or the bravery of the rescuers. Those re undeniable. This isn't to say that memorials shouldn't happen, after all a memorial can do a lot for community. This is to say that we can now never be sure. Evidence of foul play, if it were such, would by now have been destroyed. At least if the evil overlords have any sense. So all we have is what we remember. And anyone who knows anything about the mind will tell you that by now the true details are a crude shading bellow the masterpiece painted by our imaginations. So if we can't prove one way or the other, we can't in good conscience stand in judgement.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 04 Dec 2014, 07:35

Right.... looking at the thread so far my impression is essentially that no one cares, it doesn't matter and it's inappropriate, among other things, like some guy I've never spoken to or even heard of actually going so far as to start a thread devoted exclusively to accusing me of being a troll before I even said where I stood on the issue. Apparently the mere question was enough to set this guy off.

It doesn't make any sense to try and discuss it in that kind of atmosphere. I think I have your take on things, thanks for your opinions.... question withdrawn.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 04 Dec 2014, 13:55

Right.... looking at the thread so far my impression is essentially that no one cares, it doesn't matter and it's inappropriate, among other things, like some guy I've never spoken to or even heard of actually going so far as to start a thread devoted exclusively to accusing me of being a troll before I even said where I stood on the issue. Apparently the mere question was enough to set this guy off.

It doesn't make any sense to try and discuss it in that kind of atmosphere. I think I have your take on things, thanks for your opinions.... question withdrawn.
Response predictable then: this is the Skeptic part of the board, and you'll just get sceptical reponses to any conspiracy theory. Perhaps it would work better elsewhere?
....just curious really. I don't see any threads about it. Do you go with the truthers, the official narrative, or are you undecided? Where do you all fall on the issue?
I try not to "fall" on any issue if I can help it. Falling implies being prone and prey to the manipulations of others. Conspiracy theorists can have a good intuition (i.e. there probably is something fishy about it all), but they can be taken by any fantasy that takes their fancy - perhaps even conspiracies fabricated for them; the official narrative has more definite and reliable data, but it cannot take into account anything unknown or hidden from view, and won't even trust their own intuitions (amputated as it is by Occam's razor); the undecided can be pushed and pulled in whatever direction they're told to go.

All of those positions can be easily manipulated by anyone that wants to hide something. And we're back to Descarte's demon. What can we ever be sure about? :huh:

I stick with what I said before: there are unscrupulous people in the world that scheme, manipulate, deceive, lie and hide secrets. Even sceptics can agree with this. My only doubt is whether such people are involved in a highly developed conspiracy (such an idea can itself be used as a smokescreen for lesser conspiracies) or whether it's just a few unscrupulous people taking advantage of the circumstances.
Does anyone feel they really know one way or the other?
Someone does, but they're just not telling us. :-)

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Mountain Lily » 05 Dec 2014, 08:24

Does anyone feel they really know one way or the other?
Someone does, but they're just not telling us. :-)
Or they did tell us, and some people persist in stirring up an alleged conflict?

In any case, the wheel has turned. More things have happened, more responses have been made, and the global situation is as it now is. Events in the past may have been a cause, but that's now remote, and the situation now is what we have to deal with. The current state is what needs our attention now.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 05 Dec 2014, 10:39

Thanks for the additional comments (in spite of my having withdrawn the question). No one wants to believe their government, or any government really, is capable of such murderous, evil behaviour, and I desperately want to take your words to heart, and really clutch them tightly as true, but I just can't.... not yet.

Though it's true I've withdrawn the question, I'm afraid I cannot withdraw the answer or the gut-wrenching conclusion it ultimately arrives at.... http://aemilius.sosblog.com/

So, please, someone help me to come around to your way of thinking. It should be easy, just copy and paste some aspect of this simple scientific method driven empirically verifiable graphical target system analysis (perhaps an animation and a bit of accompanying text) followed by something like "This animation and accompanying text is incorrect, the scenario would not play out as depicted/described and here's why....".

If no one can do that, I'm afraid the analysis, and the conclusion it arrives at, must continue to (albeit revoltingly) stand.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 05 Dec 2014, 10:56

Does anyone feel they really know one way or the other?
Someone does, but they're just not telling us. :-)
Or they did tell us, and some people persist in stirring up an alleged conflict?
A bit of everything probably. They both told us and they didn't tell us in order to keep the peace and to stir up conflict, which produces confusion*, which is a good climate to maintain power. Anything and everything to maintain control I would say. :roll:
In any case, the wheel has turned. More things have happened, more responses have been made, and the global situation is as it now is. Events in the past may have been a cause, but that's now remote, and the situation now is what we have to deal with. The current state is what needs our attention now.
Perhaps it'll be a remote event when it's outside living memory, and even then it's implications can still be relevant and acutely felt in the present. The current state of things is often intimately tide in with "remote events" of the past, imo. The current state will indeed tell if we've moved on or whether we've simply brushed it under the carpet only for it to pop up again later. The present needs our attention, the past, our consideration.
So, please, someone help me to come around to your way of thinking.
No thanks. It gives me the shivers just to consider "making someone come round to my way of thinking". I share my thoughts, and if you can take anything from that, then fine. If you can't, then fine. My thinking is my responsibility and your thinking is your responsibility.
If no one can do that, I'm afraid the conclusion stands (for me), though I will continue to respect your various opinions.
That's the best way, imo.

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 05 Dec 2014, 11:07

Hi treegod....

Understood, and thanks, I really appreciate your obviously well considered opinion. Unfortunately, it has no real empirical impact on the analysis or the conclusion it naturally arrives at.... consequently I must dismiss it.

I'm afraid the analysis and its conclusion remains empirically unassailed.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 05 Dec 2014, 13:49

I looked at your blog and I think you chose the wrong audience.

Your arguments depend heavily on concepts in civil and structural
engineering. The DHP is well-stocked with health care and social
workers, foresters and conservationists, and the odd lawyer,
librarian and information scientist, however, it is lacking in
wearers of hard hats and users of theodolites who could engage
you in informed and critical discussion.
~
Have you tried to discuss your ideas on a civil engineering forum?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 05 Dec 2014, 15:02

Hi treegod....

Understood, and thanks, I really appreciate your obviously well considered opinion. Unfortunately, it has no real empirical impact on the analysis or the conclusion it naturally arrives at.... consequently I must dismiss it.

I'm afraid the analysis and its conclusion remains empirically unassailed.
I am highly unqualified to comment on any empirical way on the events or physics surrounding the events of 9/11 (and I suspect, i.e. opinion, the same may apply to everyone else or most people on this board).

Empiricism is the gaining of knowledge through sensorial experience, which is necessarily subjective. I have no direct sensorial experience of the US, let alone New York, the Two Towers and the events of 9/11. My only empirical experience of the US is standing on a coast somewhere near Vancouver and my grandad saying "That bit of land over there is the US." Maybe he was lying? Maybe he was mistaken? Maybe there's a big conspiracy and that the plane I was in that, supposedly, went over the atlantic, over the Great Lakes and ended in "Vancouver" was all a big conspiracy and I'm deceived about the geography of the world?

If I were to dismiss anything other than my sensorial experience, I'd end up in a strange Truman experience of the world, mightily reduced from what I infer, opine and intuit to be true. I might even have to dismiss your existence, Aemilius, since my only experience of "you" is as words on a computer screen (and a picture, but we can't be sure of that since we can put any pictures for our profiles).
Therefore I have to make "sensible assumptions" and accept that you, the US, the Two Towers, the events of 9/11 and the "rest of the world" do actually exist beyond my limited sensorial experience.

My only sensorial experience of the Two Towers has been through the TV, and other information has come to me through various media channels, like radio, Internet, books, newspapers and face-to-face conversations with people. Second-hand information and not at all direct empirical experience. All I can say, and indeed, most of the people here, is what I can infer from the second-hand knowledge I have gleaned from these sources.

Add on to that the "empirical" evidence you have provided: I have neither the scientific expertise or means to analyse and interpret your information. The "empirical" evidence you have provided is the empirical experience of someone else making measurements and experiencing the laws of physics for themselves. Since most science (tests and theories) is empirically (sensorially) outside my scope of experience I must accept the "authority" of those that (supposedly) know better... or not - I can choose not to trust, and often do.

Empirically I only have the authority to tell you about my life and its directly exprienced contents. The Two Towers can only ever be a matter of opinion for me. And as you ask yourself "Does anyone feel they really know one way or the other?" My feeling (non-empirical, extremely subjective - what you originally asked for, not facts) is that it can be known, and someone may do, but that this can only be a feeling and matter of opinion because I lack resources, scientific expertise and direct, empirical experience that would allow me to conduct such a large-scale investigation - like yourself?

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby DJ Droood » 06 Dec 2014, 04:01

Synchronistically, this was in my newspaper today.
Green Party Leader Elizabeth May put forward a bizarre petition in the House of Commons Wednesday asking the government to support a popular 9/11 conspiracy theory.

The member of Parliament for Saanich-Gulf Islands rose to “present a petition, from petitioners in Alberta, British Columbia, Ontario and particularly in the Ottawa area, calling on the Government of Canada to conduct a parliamentary review into the events that occurred in the United States on September 11.”

The New York City terrorist attack on the World Trade Center buildings on Sept. 11, 2001, is a popular target for conspiracy theorists who contend the attacks were carried out either with the knowledge of, or directly by, the U.S. government.
Related Stories

The petition asks the government to conduct a parliamentary review of the “omissions and inconsistencies” in the official 9/11 Commission Report, citing buildings falling at “nearly free-fall acceleration” and the presence of “nano-thermite composite incendiaries” in the debris of the buildings.

The petition says a review will “protect Canadians against future acts of state sponsored terrorism.”

Defending her actions on Twitter Thursday, May said she didn’t actually support the petition.

“I do not agree with petition,” she said. “It is an obligation of an MP to present every petition submitted to them.”

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/elizabet ... z3L5CQQ3bN
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Mountain Lily » 07 Dec 2014, 01:08

I am troubled by this: for some reason, nowadays, we are required to treat every idea, every conspiracy theory, every flight of fantasy, as if it were a valid concept that needs to be incorporated into our world-view. We are warned that we might be "intolerant" and "closed-minded" if we dismiss even the most idiotic theory. Members of Parliaments, Members of Congress, etc., are compelled to present completely obviously idiotic proposals for consideration because to refrain from doing so would be considered insulting and possibly defamatory to the groups that propose them, leading to retaliatory lawsuits, etc.

Much of the rest deleted, and anticipating push-back from the "all opinions matter" crowd.
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