Battles between the rational and irrational

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DJ Droood
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby DJ Droood » 04 Jun 2015, 13:57

It's all fun and games until the kooks insist on teaching your children Creationism along side Evolution because, hey, reality is subjective (at least until they reseize power) and their anti-gay theology is on the same plane of reality as Satan's science.

There is a world of difference between recognizing your thoughts as irrational/superstitious/mystical/cute and quirky and convincing yourself that it is 'truth' outside of yourself.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby babblebeth » 04 Jun 2015, 18:36

True Drood. I certainly don't expect anyone else to accept my metaphysical reality 1. Because I know it's irrational and 2. Because I don't like telling people what to do.

It's all fine and dandy to believe what you want it's another thing to impose it on others.

Now in fairness saying that I send my son to a CofE school. It's a good school though and they do make an effort to cover other religions in the RE and I'm lucky enough to have in my family Christians, Pagans, Atheists and Buddhists in my family and we manage to have open and frank but kind discussions are our religious view points so I have the luxury of saying "Why don't you ask your Aunt about Buddhism" or "Ask Grandma about Atheism" and we have stressed that judging people for what they believe is wrong and saying "you're going to hell" is at best rude and at worse horribly offensive.

Actually my Christian husband told him "I believe people get into heaven based on what they do not what they believe" and my son has adopted this.

My point with that is while there may be indoctrination at school it's very much countered at home so it's not an issue. But that's a luxury I have at my disposal and in some places I know it's not so easy.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby Davin Raincloud » 05 Jun 2015, 00:48

It's all fun and games until the kooks insist on teaching your children Creationism along side Evolution because, hey, reality is subjective (at least until they reseize power) and their anti-gay theology is on the same plane of reality as Satan's science.
The USA is a strange place.

Learnt all my Sciences at Catholic School in secular Australia.

I couldn't get people to discuss religion if I tried.

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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby DJ Droood » 05 Jun 2015, 01:20


Learnt all my Sciences at Catholic School in secular Australia.
I just learned today that the Pope is a Masters in Chemistry.


I don't think it is an issue of people holding individual, quirky views and beliefs...we all do....but most of us live outside of our own heads and interact with others....a consensus view of reality is necessary to play well with others. Luckily for all of us, the consensus view on "things" is usually based on common experience, expert inquiry....rationality. I think the "battles", within ourselves or in society are good and healthy and unavoidable....teach us which beliefs serve us and which hold us back. Maybe rather than labeling beliefs true/untrue we should focus on useful/not useful.

For instance, I have never been convinced that they landed folks on the moon....I take the Capricorn One/Stanley Kubrick view....this belief has not served me well...not at all....so I keep it to myself (except for the occasional illustrative purpose, such as this).
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby DaRC » 05 Jun 2015, 09:13

they do make an effort to cover other religions in the RE
Yes they have to = it's in the syllabus :D and Ofsted (schools inspector) is not happy if they don't
kooks insist on teaching your children Creationism along side Evolution
I think on the whole, certainly in the UK and I think most of Western Europe, we just shake our heads in disbelief when we see/hear this happening in the U.S. I think we could understand if Creationism was taught in R.E. (religious education) and Evolution in Science but I hear some States have to teach Creationism in Science :roll: .
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby Gwion » 05 Jun 2015, 11:44

Rationalism is the predominant modern worldview but I'm sure it won't be our last. The Medieval worldview was completely different, and now we see it was also completely wrong, according to rationalism. … Rationalism will probably be seen as wrong in the future simply because everything is NOT physically material and everything cannot simply be resolved to a set of mechanical or materialistic laws.
I saw a lecture recently about paralogic that I feel like needs to be shared here. It's about taking the "it has to be this OR that" mentality and replacing it "it has to be this AND that simultaneously" mentality, which I think is a lot more accurate.
As I understand it quantum computers are being designed to operate using qubits which, unlike the bits used in conventional computers can be both 1s and 0s at the same time. As more and more “science” tries to take into account quantum effects perhaps we are already moving into an age where answers/explanations don’t have to be 1 or 0 (right or wrong) but can be both 1 and 0 simultaneously. Perhaps science is already moving on and it’s just popular conceptions of it which are still lagging behind.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby DJ Droood » 05 Jun 2015, 17:34

I think on the whole, certainly in the UK and I think most of Western Europe, we just shake our heads in disbelief when we see/hear this happening in the U.S. I think we could understand if Creationism was taught in R.E. (religious education) and Evolution in Science but I hear some States have to teach Creationism in Science :roll: .
That was one fun example from the backwoods, but the continents share other irrational beliefs....I'm sure there are almost as many Europeans who are anti-vaxers, climate change deniers, knee-jerk GMO opponents, etc....ideologically motivated , rationality-lite beliefs that actually have a wider community impact. Nobody really cares if you think gremlins are responsible for your tomato plant dying or Jesus is your co-pilot (except maybe your passangers) ..but irrational, fact-flaunting beliefs are en vogue now, and that doesn't bode well for any of us. Perhaps the problem is that science is so advanced and so complex now that it might as well be magic to most of us, and information and disinformation are identical twins, and we can't make clear distinctions between reality and fantasy anymore....so we default to "positions" and "stances"....stand with othes we feel comfortable with.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby babblebeth » 06 Jun 2015, 00:34

It is a problem when you let your irrational beliefs dictate your life, even on a personal level because they aren't always healthy.

I may have an irrational belief in magic, the Fae and the Goddess and those are positive in my life BUT I also struggle with negative irrational beliefs like that i'm worthless or everyone hates me or that if I burn the pie I will die alone. Those were and are incredibly damaging.

It is better if you can see what beliefs you have that are irrational and separate out the helpful and the non helpful both to you and the world at large and also to check with others of opposing views not as the enemy but as a different perspective.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby skepticskitchen » 24 Jun 2015, 12:47

As an atheist, and a strong atheist, I don't believe in higher powers whatsoever and I tend to view the gods and goddesses of the Celtic pantheon as different aspects of nature which is quite sacred. I also believe (from my own experiences) that all living things have a consciousness and awareness. From my cats who all have different and distinct personalities and emotional profiles to plants and trees which have been demonstrated to communicate with one another through mycelium substrata which covers the whole forest floor. I believe that it is no different to kill a cow for food or a plant. They are both equally conscious. That's the main reason why I can't be a vegetarian. Rationally I know that makes little sense, but it brings me comfort to thank everything I eat. Without evidence, I believe that the planet is a living and consciously aware being and thats the closest thing to god or goddess I come. I know that's irrational, but many things that are true are irrational. Quantum physics is pretty irrational, but it is true. The observer effect makes no rational sense, but it is nevertheless true.
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby DaRC » 25 Jun 2015, 12:57

It is better if you can see what beliefs you have that are irrational and separate out the helpful and the non helpful both to you and the world at large
Yes the blade that I have learnt to measure many of behaviour patterns against is this question
'does it enhance my life, my loved ones lives and the life around me?' If I feel it doesn't then I am happy to cut it away, given that the answer to each could be yes / no / maybe there are at least 9 permutations to consider :thinking:
Quantum physics is pretty irrational, but it is true.
Hmm I think I agree and disagree as Quantum physics is mathematically explainable it cannot be irrational but it does feel counter-intuitive or irrational to us.
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<Yoda>Hmmm beware padawan for there lies the path of hard determinism</Yoda> :old: I think I've been scarred by years of ad-hoc philosophical debates about hard determinism. My youngest has so far opened the eyes of two christians, from devout christian families, to atheism and likes the hard determnism argument with me... well becuase he's a teenager and winding his dad up is fun... I'm assuming that as he seems to have given up my research on counter-arguments to hard determinism has won :grin:
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Re: Battles between the rational and irrational

Postby skepticskitchen » 30 Jun 2015, 13:59

When I say "strong atheist" what I mean to say is that I do not in any way believe in the judeo-christian-islamic single unmanifest creator god that sits in judgement over us all and has prescribed specific methods by which to please or displease it that if we deviate from we face punishment. I am a strong atheist when it comes to "revealed religion." I do not believe in a heaven or hell that we will go to after we die but I am agnostic on the concept of reincarnation. I do believe that each element has its own distinct spirit or soul and I believe all things on earth have their own spirit or soul. I believe that each animal and human has its own spirit or soul.

Belief in those things could be considered irrational, but there is also the trans-rational which the sacred grove and light-body exercises tap into as well as other forms of meditation. Scrying also taps into the trans-rational as well as other forms of divination such as the tarot and dowsing. Communication with plants and trees occurs at the trans-rational levels.

So I guess I should say that I am a strong atheist with caveats.
Yours in the Peace of the Grove,
/|\ Colley y Bara

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