Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

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Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DJ Droood » 17 Feb 2015, 18:46

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/bog-bo ... 10131.html
Kelly says Old Croghan Man died horribly, had had holes cut in his upper arms through which a rope was pulled through in order to restrain him. He was stabbed repeatedly and he had his nipples sliced, before he was finally cut in half.

Clonycavan Man was disemboweled and struck three times across the head with an axe and once across the body and also had his nipples cut.

ouch....I guess you got some extra meat for being King, but the "severance" package doesn't sound all that great.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Badger Bob » 17 Feb 2015, 22:46

Not sure what proof there is that these unfortunates were kings though. That sounds a bit too inspired by Frazer for me unless there is something he is not telling yet. I am not saying they were not kings but I find the messenger theory equally viable.

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DJ Droood » 17 Feb 2015, 23:34

Sucking the King's nipples as a sign of subservience was a revelation for me....anyone ever encounter this in the tales...maybe in a tapestry or something?
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby MountainGnome » 18 Feb 2015, 07:41

I'm just going to throw out the obvious thought, that this guy just really peed somebody off.

If you watch modern crime shows, it's one thing to carelessly neglect someone or throw them into a bog or something to die. It's something much more personal to get all up in their business with a knife (or axe) and start slicing away. It takes a certain amount of rage or anger, and from what they did to this guy, I would guess spite as well.

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby MountainGnome » 18 Feb 2015, 09:50

As a kind of synchronicity, I just learned that the ancient book Germania by the Roman historian Tacitus records that the Germanic tribes had a custom of punishing deserters and cowards by suffocating them in the mud.

Any connection here, you think?

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Feb 2015, 12:49

Speaking from a position of almost pure ignorance, all I can say is :shrug: Do they find lots of bodies in the bog, or does it seem like a special sort of interment? A few years ago, I saw a "bog bodies" exhibit at a museum...iirc, most of them seem to have had some sort of "ritualized" tossing into the bog.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DaRC » 18 Feb 2015, 13:36

punishing deserters and cowards by suffocating them in the mud.
This could relate to the Danish bog bodies - such as Tollund Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_body
Archaeologists have always been less keen on the ritual sacrifice theory which the Irish bog body investigation now supports; that kings were ritually wedded to the land and when things went bad (poor weather / crops etc...) were then sacrificed back to the land.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 18 Feb 2015, 15:50

Sucking the King's nipples as a sign of subservience was a revelation for me....anyone ever encounter this in the tales...maybe in a tapestry or something?
Most sources of this practice seem to come back to Ned Kelly, keeper of antiquities at the National Museum of Ireland. He’s a learned and respected man, appearing on many television programmes as an authority. The only reference I could find to the practice in the older Irish texts is in the Confession of St. Patrick:

“And on the same day that I arrived, the ship was setting out from the place, and I said that I had the wherewithal to sail with them; and the steersman was displeased and replied in anger, sharply: ‘By no means attempt to go with us.’ Hearing this I left them to go to the hut where I was staying, and on the way I began to pray, and before the prayer was finished I heard one of them shouting loudly after me: ‘Come quickly because the men are calling you.’ And immediately I went back to them and they started to say to me: ‘Come, because we are admitting you out of good faith; make friendship with us in any way you wish.’ (And so, on that day, I refused to suck the breasts of these men from fear of God, but nevertheless I had hopes that they would come to faith in Jesus Christ, because they were barbarians.) And for this I continued with them, and forthwith we put to sea.”

It is relatively well known that any major disfigurement or amputation disbarred an Iron Age/ Bronze Age warrior from kingship from the story of Nuada Airgetlám, first king of the Tuatha Dé Danann (Bronze Age), who lost his arm in battle but had it replaced by his physician, Dian Cecht, with one of silver, to preserve Nuada’s right to kingship. The legend has its Welsh equivalent in the figure of Lludd Llaw Eraint (Lludd of the Silver Hand).

It seems likely that most ‘bog bodies’ are those of captured warriors, chieftains or kings as the natural thing to do after winning a great battle or war would be to gift high tributes to the war gods. Swords – bent beyond use or broken are regular votive finds – why not the more significant captured owners? (Trophy heads seem to be of those slain during battle rather than after.) J. Caesar stated that, “the gods prefer the execution of men taken in the act of theft or brigandage, or guilty of some offence” (Conquest of Gaul, vi, 16), and Tacitus, “They deemed it, indeed, a duty to cover their altars with the blood of captives and to consult their deities” (Annals, xiv, 30).

Water has always been the conduit between this world and the Otherworld, and ‘black pools’ and ‘black water’ were important places for transitioning offerings or receiving guidance and prophecy. Places were named for their ‘black pools’ to flag their importance:

Dublin (Dubh Linn) is derived from the Irish for “black pool”; the remnant of this pool is within the Sean Walsh Memorial Park at the end of the River Poddle.

The Irish towns of Dowling, Doolin, Ballindoolin and the 8 Devlins have identical Dubh Linn origins.

River Blackwater, County Cork. The surrounding land once belonged to the legendary chief druid Mog Roith (“Servant of the Wheel”), payment for magically winning a great war in C3rd, and where he raised his daughter, Tlachtga, the powerful druidess. Fermoy (Irish: Fhear Maí, meaning “Men of the Plain”, originally Fir Maige Féne), County Cork, is the main town and the people there claim descent from him.

Poldhu (“black pool” in Cornish) Point and Cove, on The Lizard, Cornwall, are close to the village of Mullion, which is surrounded by Bronze and Iron Age barrows and was an important centre of copper mining. The main fishing and cargo bay is Mullion Bay with a small high stone-built harbour wall to protect from storms. Poldhu Cove is hidden from view by steeply rising granite cliffs and has a flat sandy beach perfect for fires and rituals.

The River Blackwater, Hampshire, is a tributary of the River Test and is very acid, passing through much gravel and peat. A dig at Nursling revealed extensive Iron Age ritual activity with flat graves and barrows, ritual depositions, charred bone and grain. This site was used from circa 1000BC to AD C1st (arrival of the Romans) (M Leivers and C Gibson, Bronze Age and Iron Age Excavations at Adanac Park, Nursling, Hampshire, 2008). Just over the marsh land in Totton, extensive 3,500-year-old Middle Bronze Age jetties into the wetland have been found, dubbed ‘the oldest bridges in England’ (A. Fitzpatrick, Wessex Archaeology, October 2003). Many bronze objects have been discovered – swords, axes, bracelets and small boats – all cast in as offerings. These seem to be similar to the votive trackway complexes found in the Somerset levels, Fiskerton, Lincolnshire and Ireland.

The Lindow Moss (= Llŷn Dow = Black Lake) was once a sacred hub for druidic worship. The high-ranking druid, ‘Lindow Man’, brought from Ireland, chosen to plead to the gods to intervene against the Romans, was willingly sacrificed here.

The city of Lincoln is derived from the Roman Lindum Colonia or ‘colony of Lindum,’ a Latin rendition of ‘Lindo’, being a version of ‘Lindow’ = Llŷn Dow or “Black Lake”. The “Black Lake” is now called ‘Brayford Pool’.

In the Blakewater (=Black Water) Valley, Blackburn, Lancashire, refers to the ‘black brook’ at All Hallows Spring on Railway Road. The modern name confirms it is still considered a holy place today.

The River Douglas, formerly Dubglas (“black water”), a tributary of the Ribble, Lancashire (of more, see following).

Blackpool. Lancashire was an area covered by oak forests and peat bog, populated by the Setantii (“Dwellers in the Water”) - see following - a sub-tribe of the Brigantes (“Brighid’s People”). The much-drained ‘black pool’ is now in Stanley Park and in the middle of the reclaimed area stands the town zoo.

The Setantii were considered so ritually dangerous that, during the occupation, they had their own 6,000-strong Roman garrison posted on the banks of the Ribble at Ribchester. Five and a half thousand of them were imported Sarmatians from modern day Iran so that neither culture nor kinship could cause an alliance or sympathy. Likewise, most of the 13 British regiments were stationed on the Danube, suppressing the Dacians (L Keppie, The Making of the Roman Army: From Republic to Empire, 1998). The Sarmatian speciality was cavalry for a speedy and deadly response to insurrection. (Ptolemy, Geographia, and letters from the Roman commander of the garrison, “blue-painted savages… worship the sun… and Druids were their priests…”).

The Setantii are implied in Nennius the monk’s account of the Twelve Battles of King Arthur. A Welsh Briton among the Saxons, he states that four of these battles took place on the banks of the River Dubglas (“black water”), now known as the Douglas, a tributary of the Ribble, which flows through Preston, Lancashire, close to Blackpool. The connotations of the divinely-linked “River of Black Water” in supplying spiritual aid to Arthur, now-sleeping King of the Britons, would not have been lost on the original readers (Nennius, Historia Brittonum AD 858).
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 18 Feb 2015, 17:17

I have also found a quote from Buile Suibhne (The Madness of King Sweeny). Suibhne (‘Geilt’ ‘the cursed’), son of Colman Cuar, former king of Dal Araidhe, was driven insane by his own cowardice after fleeing the battle of Congal in fear, (dated to the battle of Mag Roth, AD 637).

The learnéd company here will recollect that thereafter he lived in the woods, composing wise verse and relating visions. He was eventually killed by a cowherd on finding out that his wife has been giving Suibhne milk.

The passage tells that, “The cowherd made a thrust of the spear out of his hand at Suibhne and wounded him in the nipple of his left breast, so that the point went through him, breaking his back in two”.

Was this splitting of the nipple alluding to the death of a disgraced king, denied royal status in the afterlife? Much as the ‘triple death’ guaranteed rebirth? Why else mention it?
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DJ Droood » 18 Feb 2015, 18:56

fascinating stuff...no need to speculate when this board is full of so many scholars!
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby DaRC » 19 Feb 2015, 12:58

Five and a half thousand of them were imported Sarmatians from modern day Iran so that neither culture nor kinship could cause an alliance or sympathy.
This was standard Roman practice - to shift troops across the empire from client/conquered states. It also meant the Sarmatian cavalry were very far from home and causing rebellions there.

Interestingly these Sarmatians may well have brought the sword in the stone myth and the dragon concept (as they may have introduced the Draco standard to the Roman army) into the country and onwards into Welsh and Arthurian myth.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby SlaineDella » 27 Mar 2015, 11:09

Dr Kelly either knows something no one else does or has an active imagination. I don't, sadly, have the time at the moment to look at this in detail but surely alarm bells should be ringing if we take only one of his assumption: "By using a range of methods to kill the victim, the ancient Irish sacrificed to the goddess in all her forms." He is able to tell this from the body alone? Or are we to assume there is other evidence - of a kind never found before and thus more newsworthy than anything else in the article - that was found with it that can confirm this finding? And which goddess required this, what "forms" and how many? Three one would assume? Or more?

The "sucking of the Kings nibbles" I believe is related to one of the legends of Saint Patrick cited in Thomas Cahill's "How The Irish Saved Western Civilization" (PP 167 of the Kindle version). However, it does not involve a king but a group of sailors offering the old snake charmer their nipples! According to whom it was a general custom of the time. I quote from that to clarify:

"This was Patricius’s moment of greatest danger: recognized as a fugitive in a seaside settlement, he could not expect to remain at liberty many minutes more. “Hearing this response, I left them to go to the hut where I was staying, and on the way I began to pray and before I had finished my prayer I heard one of the sailors shouting after me: ‘Come quickly, they’re calling you!’ And right away I returned to them and they began to say to me: ‘Come on board, we’ll take you on trust.’” They even offered their nipples to be sucked, the ancient Irish version of “kiss and make up.” Patricius, too much the Roman for such outré goings-on, held back—he says “for fear of God,” but better minds than Patricius’s have succumbed to a confusion of Roman custom and Christian faith. The sailors shrugged: “You can make friends with us however you like.” Patricius jumped on board, and they sailed at once." (Thomas Cahill: "How The Irish Saved Western Civilization" )

And whether the nipples were removed is even debatable. I quote Karen E. Lange in National Geographic regarding Dr Kelly's thoughts on this matter: "Science can’t prove Kelly’s scenario. Other researchers say, for example, that the bog rather than the killers might be responsible for the damage to Oldcroghan Man’s nipples; his waterlogged body was as fragile as wet cardboard." (ref: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0 ... es-p4.html)

I like a good story as much as anyone, but I do get nervous when it is presented as scientific "fact"

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby SlaineDella » 27 Mar 2015, 11:28

Sucking the King's nipples as a sign of subservience was a revelation for me....anyone ever encounter this in the tales...maybe in a tapestry or something?
The only reference I could find to the practice in the older Irish texts is in the Confession of St. Patrick:.
Green Raven. Please forgive me. I did not see your post before posting mine and missed this. Blame a lack of sleep and age :)

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 27 Mar 2015, 17:48

No offence taken :) – I was looking in to see what was being added to the subject as I hadn’t given the subject a lot of thought until I found the Buile Suibhne reference. My guess is that Eamonn ‘Ned’ Kelly, although primarily an archaeologist, is applying his encyclopaedic knowledge of ancient Irish texts to the finds as they come up. I enjoy interpretation from the historians after the science has been provided. Are you familiar with the works of Ronald Hutton and the late Anne Ross? Great exponents of this art.

At the moment I am revisiting the finds from the Wetwang Slack, Yorkshire, excavation. The BBC commissioned a reconstruction of a lady warrior’s face for their ‘Meet the Ancestors – Revisited’ (2013) series. She was of high status and buried in her chariot with grave goods for her journey. What caught my attention was that she had a facial haemangioma - a large purple misgrowth of blood-vessels that distorted her cheekbone, eye socket and upper jaw. The programme failed to notice that, being strikingly attractive on one side and disfigured with a dark purple stain on the other, she may have been regarded as an incarnation of the great goddess Brighid, whose face was: “dark and ugly on one side but white and beautiful on the other” (Lebor Gabála Érenn/ The Book of the Taking of Ireland, oral history, earliest surviving transcription, C11th).

The programme spent most of its time rebuilding her chariot but not much on the grave goods. One item was an iron mirror in an otter-skin pouch to protect the surface (Dent, Wetwang Slack, 1984). As anyone with a cast iron skillet will know, the gloss on cured iron is glass-like and the deepest black, thus a portable ‘black pool’ (see my post above). The otter lives both in and out of water, symbolising the transition between spiritual Realms. The Cù-dubh, Dòbhran or Dyfrgwn (‘water-dog’) was a highly sacred animal, protected by tabu (‘geis’) and considered a strong protector. Note that Maelduine, Brendan and others were met and helped by otters during their voyages. By contrast, vanity mirrors were made of polished bronze, richly decorated with high-skill art work (Jody Joy, curator, British Museum, Iron Age Mirrors, 2009).

This lady, in my opinion, was a great high druidess of the Parisii tribe and venerated as a living incarnation of Brighid. Also, now that the British Museum has finished messing about with her, her mortal remains should be laser scanned then placed with great reverence into an oak casket and re-laid to rest with at least as much veneration as given to the last Plantagenet king.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby SlaineDella » 28 Mar 2015, 08:46

I am very familiar with both their works yes, including also Green, etc. Yes. Very good work and I understand what you mean. I also, know of other work by Dr Kelly which I would agree with. Unfortunately, in this case I feel just a little too much imagination and interpretation is being done. However, perhaps i am being unfair. In this case we are simply reading highlghts in a newspaper. And the media does like to sensationalise. I would like to read a paper by Dr kelly about this, that is fully referenced.

While I am not adverse to thinking that the "celts" might have engaged in sacrifice (It has a long tradition after all. Certainly the Romans had their own form, as too did Christianity in the form of the "auto-da-fé, etc - even if it was self described in other terms). What worries me is the lack of evidence for it apart from a few"rumours" produced for clear political reasons by both the Romans and early christians. Indeed, even in the legends of saint patrick only one such mention is recorded, as I recall ,and that was specifically against one irish Celtic god, Crom Cruach (Whose symbolism oddly might suggest a solar god). But again this may have been deliberate Christian rewriting. Although there is of course the interesting entry in the Dindshenchas but again the description of St Patrick as supernatural saviour must be taken into account:

Dindshenchas: Mag Sléacht
Here used to be
A high idol with many fights,
Which was named the Cromm Cruaich;
It made every tribe to be without peace.

'T was a sad evil!
Brave Gaels used to worship it.
From it they would not without tribute ask
To be satisfied as to their portion of the hard world

He was their god the withered Cromm with many mists,
The people whom he shook over every host,
The everlasting kingdom they shall not have.

To him without glory
They would kill their piteous, wretched offspring
With much wailing and peril,
To pour their blood around Cromm Cruaich.

Milk and Corn
They would ask from him speedily,
In return for one third of their healthy issue,
Great was the horror and scare of him.

To him noble Gaels would prostrate themselves,
From the worship of him with many man-slaughters,
The plain is called "Mag Slecht".

They did evil,
They did beat their palms,
They pounded their bodies,
Wailing to the demon who enslaved them.

Around Cromm Cruaich,
The hosts would prostrate themselves,
Though he put them under deadly disgrace,
Their name clings to the noble plain.

In their ranks (stood),
Four times three stone idols,
To bitterly beguile the hosts,
The figure of the Cromm was made of gold.

Since the rule of Herimon,
The noble man of grace,
There was worshipping of stones,
Until the coming of the good Patrick of Macha.

A sledge hammer he applied to the Cromm,
He applied from crown to sole,
He destroyed without lack of valour,
The feeble idol which was there.

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 28 Mar 2015, 12:10

Yes indeed, the prose Dindshenchas (Mag Slecht) names Tighearnmas/ Tigernmas as a key figure in these Samhain celebrations and the Annals of the Four Masters (The Age of the World, 3656) relates how he comes to a sticky end at the same. As you say, sacrifice - human and otherwise – is a much documented activity worldwide and throughout human history, so I too have no problem believing that it happened in pre-Roman Britain (and post-Roman – of more another time). I link it to trophy taking and the instinct to eradicate competitive genetic input – like victorious lions instantly killing the offspring of the vanquished male.
It seems likely that most ‘bog bodies’ are those of captured warriors, chieftains or kings as the natural thing to do after winning a great battle or war would be to gift high tributes to the war gods. Swords – bent beyond use or broken are regular votive finds – why not the more significant captured owners? (Trophy heads seem to be of those slain during battle rather than after.) J. Caesar stated that, “the gods prefer the execution of men taken in the act of theft or brigandage, or guilty of some offence” (Conquest of Gaul, vi, 16), and Tacitus, “They deemed it, indeed, a duty to cover their altars with the blood of captives and to consult their deities” (Annals, xiv, 30).
Modern historians are often quick to dismiss Roman writings as ‘negative spin’ but Julius Caesar was a high priest of Jupiter (Velleius Paterculus, Roman History 2.22; Florus, Epitome of Roman History 2.9) and knew a thing or two about religious ritual and philosophy. There is also the recent lesson of Richard III – for decades learnéd scholars have been stating that the whole ‘hunchback’ thing was outrageous Tudor propaganda and that all the images had been altered to satisfy prevalent superstition concerning those who were 'other'. Then he turns up (95% certain) with a pronounced scoliosis. The strongest lies are mostly truth and if Caesar (alongside others) made up the human sacrifice thing then all those thousands who traded and served in the Gallic/Keltic or geographically British regions would have instantly derided the claims, undermining the conviction justifying the costly military ventures.

Today, I like to think we’ve moved on but these ancient rituals can still inform and inspire modern practice. I playfully raise a child into the air to a cheer (rather than smashing their head on a boulder, as per Tigernmas) to signify the start of the Samhain feast and we include the game ‘apple bobbing’ (rather than drowning a youth in a barrel of ale/ cider as per the Gundestrup Cauldron). We give of ourselves rather than give a life - we have the period between Alban Elfed and Samhain to make things right between ourselves, our families and friends we may have offended; settle debts – financial and moral; renew our relationship with the bionetwork and community; and generally make ourselves fit to greet the returning ancestors.
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby SlaineDella » 29 Mar 2015, 11:15

I thought there was now some debate as to whether he ever was a high priest of Jupiter? Considering he spent most of the time cavorting around Europe it seems he didn't take the job very seriously :)

However, and in all seriousness - I understand that one would have thought there there would have been much derision around this if it was untrue. This is more so as we are pretty certain his writings were being closely scrutinised "back home" in a search for untruths that could be used for understandable political reasons. But saying this, is it possible that this section of the writings is so brief - despite how much has been made of it - that it was simply overlooked? And societies do love to feel "superior" to others.

I do think that it is interesting that Dr Kelly's theory has received so much prominence in the past few years. If there is one thing that we can be certain of is that all cultures - as indeed all "others" - and how they are perceived is heavily influenced by the socialization, political beliefs and psychology of those who are "looking". This in turn influences theories about the "other". This has nowhere been more prominent than in Celtic or indeed Druidic studies over the past few hundred years. Or so it seems to me. Now, we have seen a highly prominent critique of our political system and its leaders since 2008, together with a highly vocal criticism and discussion around responsibility when things "go wrong". - much greater than I can remember in a long time. I wonder how many people might wonder what the attitude of a political leader would be - should their policies fail - if they knew that they would be subject to the non surgical removal of their nipples? :)

Have you read Bodies in the Bog and the Archaeological Imagination by Karin Sanders?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FU4H ... &q&f=false

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... eview.html

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 29 Mar 2015, 16:56

I thought there was now some debate as to whether he ever was a high priest of Jupiter? Considering he spent most of the time cavorting around Europe it seems he didn't take the job very seriously :)
:chuckles: Indeed. About as spiritual and serious as the Borgia popes and, like them, knowing his stuff, capable of putting on a good show and understanding how to manipulate people’s perceptions towards morality and ‘doing the right thing’. And utterly ruthless. He was raised to occupy the office of high priesthood and it was only when this was stripped from him in a political move against his family that he joined the army (the Flamen Dialis was not permitted to touch a horse or look upon an army) and rose through the officer ranks. (Plutarch, Caesar 1; Suetonius, Julius 1)
However, and in all seriousness - I understand that one would have thought that there would have been much derision around this if it was untrue. This is more so as we are pretty certain his writings were being closely scrutinised "back home" in a search for untruths that could be used for understandable political reasons. But saying this, is it possible that this section of the writings is so brief - despite how much has been made of it - that it was simply overlooked? And societies do love to feel "superior" to others.
Point taken. The mission to Britain was clearly a failure but was ameliorated by success in Germania. The writings were clearly compiled after the venture and probably after his seizing power, however, at this point in his career he was still vulnerable to the senate and he would have had to justify the excursion with hard cause and tangible benefits. The key justification (IMO) was that the centre of European Druidic power, organisation and, thus, resistance to Roman rule was in Britain and the key benefits were British tin (Hecataeus, Pytheas of Massalia, Diodorus Siculus et al), gold and labour. Even after publication, his enemies would have been searching for any excuse to weaken his hold on power. If the central facts were untrue then it would have cast major doubt on his judgement and undermined him considerably.
I do think that it is interesting that Dr Kelly's theory has received so much prominence in the past few years. If there is one thing that we can be certain of is that all cultures - as indeed all "others" - and how they are perceived is heavily influenced by the socialization, political beliefs and psychology of those who are "looking". This in turn influences theories about the "other". This has nowhere been more prominent than in Celtic or indeed Druidic studies over the past few hundred years. Or so it seems to me.
I too would like to see a paper of Dr Kelly’s with all his sources. It would be fascinating reading as well as nailing down those oh-so-important grey areas. And you are absolutely right in highlighting how much wishful thinking as well as the imprinting of current thought processes on to ancient discoveries enters current interpretation. There is also much fanciful conjecturising in the wake of the massive cuts in education budgets leading to increasingly bizarre reinterpretation (‘peer review’) of existing material to justify European research grants.
Now, we have seen a highly prominent critique of our political system and its leaders since 2008, together with a highly vocal criticism and discussion around responsibility when things "go wrong". - much greater than I can remember in a long time. I wonder how many people might wonder what the attitude of a political leader would be - should their policies fail - if they knew that they would be subject to the non surgical removal of their nipples? :)
Oh yessss! I’d vote for that :) :searches in garden shed for chainsaw:
Have you read Bodies in the Bog and the Archaeological Imagination by Karin Sanders?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FU4H ... &q&f=false

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... eview.html
That’s not a tome I’ve happened across - thanks for the recommendation! There is something sad and yet magickal at seeing these figures, frozen in time, and reading through the interpretations. My understanding of ancient British druidry is greatly informed by these – that elusive ancient mindset! Seamus Heaney and many of the anthology contributors to the book are among my favourites. Thanks also for the review by Phillip Hoare. I have just finished his The Sea Inside – a must-have for all communicants with Gaia.

Also still uncomfortable at the ‘curiosity shop’ displays in most museums although they are getting a little more respectful – Emma Restall-Orr’s campaign (http://www.honour.org.uk/) seems to be effecting a change in thought. The Manchester museums hold her in high esteem. Must try to organise a November poppy wreath laying in the Dorchester Museum for the fallen British defenders against the Roman invasion in their glass boxes. Perhaps ‘Lindow Man’ and the victims of the Ham Hill Massacre could be likewise honoured – they were clearly amongst the fallen resistance against Rome but not in set-piece battle.
“Listen, O little pig! are not the buds of thorns
Very green, the mountain beautiful, and beautiful the earth?”
- Myrddin Wyllt, Hoianau / Greetings (to a Pig)

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SlaineDella
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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby SlaineDella » 30 Mar 2015, 03:17

Yes. I am of the nature whereby, I am not against such bodies being excavated and indeed studied but more respect really needs to be shown. I certainly cannot understand why the bodies cannot be returned or buried somewhere else with some respect. But alas, this seems to be something society/ies do not seem to be interested.in. Your notion of a November poppy wreath laying sounds a very good idea and something I had not considered at all.

I was reminded of the following re-reading this thread, The paper is over 20 years old now but thought you - and anyone else reading - might find it interesting (although you may have read already?) https://www.academia.edu/370120/Caesars ... Structures

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Re: Bog Bodies Are Kings Sacrificed by Celts, says expert

Postby Green Raven » 30 Mar 2015, 12:44

Thank you for that link – I had not read it – it is an excellent summary of J Caesar’s cultural world and ‘filter’. I too was amused to see the resemblance of some of the phrasing! JC’s insistence on labelling all in Roman terms is very irritating to the modern reader (Mercury, Apollo, Mars, Jupiter and Minerva. Really?) and yet fundamental to the colonialist’s method. By ascribing the Empire’s terminology to the existing system, the propagandist can demonstrate how everything is ‘primitive’ and ‘broken’ which, in this case the Romans, will benignly ‘fix’ - after taking over and asset stripping, by-the-by. Such nice helpful people. No wonder that the British ruling classes set such store in a classical education.

Still, the relabelling gets even the casual reader to look harder at the descriptions of the Gaulish system that do use the contemporary terminology and interrogate the nature of the society soon to be overwhelmed - step forward, Professor Sir Barrington W. “Barry” Cunliffe and Dr Anne Ross. And for pagans to pay close attention to not just the names but the natures and personalities of the deities – and other mythological beings and heroes.

I wonder if we can make a case for reparations against the Italian state?
“Listen, O little pig! are not the buds of thorns
Very green, the mountain beautiful, and beautiful the earth?”
- Myrddin Wyllt, Hoianau / Greetings (to a Pig)


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