Question about plurals

Subforum for Welsh language studies and posts.
User avatar
ayslin1
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 86
Joined: 21 Jun 2007, 02:21
Gender: Female
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Question about plurals

Postby ayslin1 » 06 Aug 2007, 01:01

I know many people from the board have this doubt...

In the Bardic and Ovate we have a subforum  for each pack of Gwers we receive, but we have many plural versions for the word GWERS

which one is the right one?
gwersi , Gwersi or other?:where:

I remember receiving the word gwersi in a letter from the office once, but our forum uses Gwersi.  :blink:

Could you help us?
Ayslin /|\
My heritage: Image
http://www.adruida.com

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 06 Aug 2007, 10:57

The plural for Gwers is Gwersi! :)
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
ayslin1
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 86
Joined: 21 Jun 2007, 02:21
Gender: Female
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Postby ayslin1 » 06 Aug 2007, 12:17

Thank you blackbird!

so probably there was a spelling problem in a Gwers years ago  :D
Ayslin /|\
My heritage: Image
http://www.adruida.com

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Postby ennys » 06 Aug 2007, 18:15

Maybe that has something to do with the u being pronounced -in south welsh at least- as an 'ee', which is often written as i.....ar geiriadur mawr gives gwersi :-)
Dancing to the music of the Web
Etre ar mor hag an neñv hag an douar

User avatar
Beith
Posts: 3514
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 18:28
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Contact:

Postby Beith » 06 Aug 2007, 21:23

Hi, thanks very much for the clarifications above. I also saw a form of the word: "Gwersau"...does that have the same meaning as the plural Gwersi but with a dialectical difference between N/S Wales? -  or has it a different meaning entirely?

Also
- is Gwers used both for lesson as well as for "verse"? (as in poetry) and finally (while I'm on a roll!)
- is Gwers used interchangeably with "llith" or is there a difference in usage?

cheers!
Beith

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Postby ennys » 07 Aug 2007, 09:06

I shall have another look...
Gwers: 1. rhywbeth a ddysgir, cyfnod arbennig at ddysgu, etc. LESSON
2. tro, gwaith..WHILE, TURN

Not for poetry, as it seems. The Breton word 'gwerz' (which is exactly the same) means ballad, or narrative poem. In Breton it has lost the meaning of lesson (kept the one of while, turn ), it seems, and the funny thing is, the word for lesson in Breton is 'kentel', which is related to the Irish word for song, 'ceadal'. Just not sure wether this was modern or old Irish...

Have a look at llith....
Llith (1) gwers, darlleniad, ysgrif. LESSON, ARTICLE.


edit: I overlooked you first question. The geiriadur gives two words 'gwers', the first is the one I just cited and has only the plural in -i. The second can in plural be gwersi or gwersau or gwersoedd, , and has rougly the same meaning: lesson, prayer or verse. I don't know what the difference is ( I am not an expert, just handy with a dictionairy when it comes to welsh) but I guess it is dialectical. Maybe someone else knows? A welsh speaker perhaps?

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 07 Aug 2007, 10:18

'Llith' does mean lesson as in gwers, article or lecture, however, it is used more to describe lectures-the modern noun for lecture is 'darlith' where 'llith' is incorporated into the word. Also, the modern noun for article used is 'erthygl' so I'm not sure whether 'llith' is archaic or not. I've not come across is apart from 'darlith'.

There is no real interchange between the words 'llith' and 'gwers' because they mean slightly different things.

As for the use of 'gwers' for verse, you're correct Beith, it does mean lesson and/or verse. However, other words used for verse are 'adnod', 'pennill' and for describing the whole verse as poetry: 'barddoniaeth'. ('Bardd' for poet :)) For describing a verse in a poem I use pennill as it's the noun most commonly used! Probably to avoid confusion with 'gwers' as in lesson. All depends on preference and dialect I suppose.

As for the word 'gwersau' I've never come across it, in conversation, school or the dictionary! I've looked on the internet but the sources who have used 'gwersau' are mostly Welsh learners blogs and stuff. I have found in my dictionary, 'Gwersebau' which is plural for doctrines. Otherwise I'm very tempted to say it's a grammatical mistake. I can't be 100% sure though because I can't vouch for others!! (I'm South Walian). I found nothing whatsoever for 'gwersoedd' :S

What geiriadur are you using Neeltje? Is it the Geiriadur Mawr? Or the Modern Welsh Dictionary? That might make a difference.

Welsh is an ever evolving language-aswell as very complicated! There are often many different words for one thing and then those words are sometimes used elsewhere for different things! To cater for this, the words previously used become more archaic in the original sense but when used for the new thing it's perfectly fine. lol. And then there are the dialects....

I hope I've helped somewhat. I'm sorry I can't give the in's and out's of why and how and the linguistics as I've grown up speaking it and can't remember learning it (if that makes sense).
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
Beith
Posts: 3514
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 18:28
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Contact:

Postby Beith » 07 Aug 2007, 13:54

Hi there!

Thanks very much Blackbird and Neeltje for replying to my query.

Blackbird
I came across gwersau and gwersi on a dictionary website Blackbird, but I don't know which one now. I was wondering if the -au ending was a dialectical variant or orthographic variant of gwersi as a plural, or if it was a different form of word.
(eg. does Eisteddfod have a plural form like Eisteddfodau? or is this not a plural but a different 'case' of the word?)

I came across the meaning of gwers also as a "verse" so thanks for that. At first look I was wondering whether it was a borrowing in either direction. eg. Gw in welsh is equivalent to and f-sound in Irish and I wondered if that was the same in the case of the V of Verse (which also has an f-sound in German, Archaic Irish Verne - later becomes Fern (Fearn) in Ogam with replacement of V by F phoneme)

anyway, sorry...just mucking around with my small knowledge of linguistics!

Neeltje - thanks for those. Yep alot of Welsh and Breton words are similar - both being 'P-Celtic' languages and one can of course relate those words comparatively to Q-celtic.  I liked that you gave also the Kentel -ceadal. To answer your question there...ceadal would be the modernized way of writing cétal (pronounced "kaydal") and it is the old verbal noun of the verb Canaid (to sing) in Old Irish. In a modern sense, ceadal = recital.

best wishes
Beith

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 07 Aug 2007, 14:50

Argh linguistic techno babble!! :grin:

Adding 'au' onto a word creates a plural generally. In this case if you were given 'gwersau' it would be assumed as a plural of 'gwers'. However, just adding 'au' to the word doesn't always make it a plural as some words need other extensions like 'iau' , 'en', 'od' 'wyr', 'i' or 'on' (there are many forms!) or sometimes the root word is just shortened itself like for instance 'coeden'-tree, 'coed'-trees. Also the root word can be changed slightly to indicate a plural i.e 'dafad'-one sheep, 'defaid'-lots of sheep.
I've looked on online dictionaries and a few have given the plural as 'gwersi' or 'gwersau' both meaning the same 'lesson'. I can therefore only assume that both are correct these days! (My dictionary only has 'gwersi' but it was published in 1992 so it might be different now.)
It sounds soooo wrong to me though! We need the opinion of different Welsh speaker to decide whether this is dialectical or not!!! Welshies where are you?!

Just be careful with online translations as many are completely unreliable! For instance-my signature means "With a song in my soul and the old language in my blood, I live a full life with a Celtic heart". Translated online, someone got this: "He flour crookedly me ghost a'r heniaeth crookedly me blood rwy'n live life quite he heart Celtaidd". Talk about bizarre!

Brightest blessings :)
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
Beith
Posts: 3514
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 18:28
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Contact:

Postby Beith » 07 Aug 2007, 15:04

LOL! Linguistic babble indeed! (I especially liked the translation at the bottom of your mail!)

I am always careful with online sources because generally I don't trust them unless they're from a reputable author/academic journal/well authored dictionary...and I had seen the Gwersau in what I thought was the latter....but can't find the ref now.

Anyway -  thanks a million for replying. Maybe we can coax another welshman/woman out of the hills yet!

Beith

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 07 Aug 2007, 15:21

:grin:

Glad to have helped a little-maybe one day (if I get the guts to try!) you will be able to help me with some Irish!

Take care!

*OGI OGI OGI!!! Cymry y Gogledd, De, Dwyrain ag Orllewin! Ble y'ch chi gyd?!! Ry'ni'n angen eich farn os gwelwch yn dda! :D*

(calling the Welshies from far and wide lol)
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
Beith
Posts: 3514
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 18:28
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Contact:

Postby Beith » 07 Aug 2007, 15:38

Maybe we should wave a few leeks and daffodils?!

I'm hoping to start learning the rudiments of Welsh later this year myself so I'll be back to plague you with questions! grin.
what would maybe be good for us is if we trade terms! eg. X in Welsh is Y in Irish ...so one see's the similarities in two Celtic languages. Good ole' comparatives!

Thanks v much for your help and good luck on your project you mentioned on the other forum .Abhaill gave some of the major names and I can add more but i think you'll find plenty in any book of Irish myth tales if you/friend are looking for a compendium of names and stories.

Best wishes...gogogoch!
Beith

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Postby ennys » 07 Aug 2007, 18:19

I love linguistic babble!!

Blackbird, I am using the Geiriadur mawr, in short 'the geiriadur', so it might be that gwersoedd is an old-fashioned form.
And I love the online translation of your sig  :grin:

Beith, thanks for your answer about the Irish word!
And indeed, welsh and breton are similar in many ways...so similar that, after two weeks of hearing various breton dialects, I could make sense of slow spoken welsh like being another very weird dialect, lol....There are many words in common. Still they are distinct languages and the same words can have very different meanings.  Like the word gwers/z :)

User avatar
Beith
Posts: 3514
Joined: 03 Feb 2003, 18:28
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Contact:

Postby Beith » 07 Aug 2007, 19:58

hi guys!

have either of you done any Breton? I missed the chance to do some lessons in it earlier this year due to other commitments but I'd love to have a go! am hoping to get some Welsh under the belt later this year too....we'll see how that goes!

I found an online course for Welsh that looks like it might be good as a beginner's self-teaching tool* and it's free (*from the outside and admittedly, a very cursory scan last night)  - have you seen this before (not that you need it!) but just wondered if you'd encountered it!
http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/TOC.html

Beith

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 08 Aug 2007, 13:22

Beith-1st lesson-we don't have an X in Welsh! :P For your reference this is our alphabet:
A B C CH D DD E F FF H I J L LL M N NG O P PH R RH S T TH W Y  (What's the Irish alphabet?)

But yeah sounds good :)Will look forward to it! As for the project, I just received an awesome book: "The Isles of the Many Gods" which is an A-Z of pagan Gods and Goddesses worshipped in ancient Britain and Ireland from 1st millenium to the Middle Ages. 'Tis great :grin: so I'll sink my teeth into that aswell as look at the links and help I got from you and Abhaill :) (Thanks again by the way)

Ah the Geiriadur Mawr! Yeah that might explain it. Geiriadur Mawr includes a lot of archaic words. Unfortunately mine's up in my student house at the moment so I can't check. Ah well :D

And yeah, the online translation cracked me up good and proper when I read it!!! lol talk about misleading!! hehe

Blessed Be guys :)
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
~*Blackbird*~
OBOD Bard
Posts: 202
Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 12:18
Gender: Female
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby ~*Blackbird*~ » 08 Aug 2007, 13:24

p.s that online Welsh course looks good. I'll take a look at it myself-might learn a thing or two and be able to explain better in future!! :)
~*Efo can yn fy ysbryd,a'r heniaeth yn fy ngwaed,rwy'n byw bywyd llawn efo calon Celtaidd*~

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Postby ennys » 08 Aug 2007, 20:20

hi guys!

have either of you done any Breton? I missed the chance to do some lessons in it earlier this year due to other commitments but I'd love to have a go!
I have done some Breton! And I am quite mad about the language and the culture and everything Breton...Just back from a summercourse, and still hovering on cloud nine :cloud9:


Return to “Welsh”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest