could anyone help please

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Brock
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could anyone help please

Postby Brock » 16 Mar 2007, 02:10

hi all,

       I'm sorry if this is inapropriate to ask on here as i realise it is a study group. But my sister is moving to Scotland as soon as she's sold her house and wants to name her new home there 'Our Dream' in Scot Gaelic.
     I've looked at the translation dictionarys, but not being very up on languages (a bit beyond my understanding) :oops: I wondered if someone could help.
  I found aisling which seems to be dream or vision (would that be right?)but can't find anything for our. Hope you can help

                thanks brock.

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Beith
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Postby Beith » 16 Mar 2007, 02:37

Hi Brock, God no its not a "study group" ..none of these pages are focused too much on that. They are just a repository for info or dialogue on any of these celtic languages or general celtic studies topics. So welcome right in!

Secondly I'm 'crashing' this page myself because I'm from the Irish gaelic side of things rather than scots. But if you go back far enough they amount to a very similar if not quite the same thing, both being goidelic languages.

So - you are right - Aisling is a dream or vision.
The word for "our" in Irish gaelic is ár (pronounced Awr) and it has a nasalizing effect on a following word, so ár n-aisling.
Other words are brionglóid (pron. "Bring-glohdge" that's oh as in "oh my God") or taibhreamh (Tavrev or tau-roo depending on dialect and time of language)

Again if you use the possessive pronoun "our" then you use Ár before these words as follows (it causes the nasalizing mutations below)

ár mbrionglóid
ár dtaibhreamh
ár n-aisling

or perhaps you could turn it around slightly and say
brionglóid dúinn  /aisling dúinn etc (a dream to us)

All the above are Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge). I'm not sure how similar they'd be in Scots.

Lastly, there are probably more succinct colloquial means to express that idea, which may be more suitable for a house name than the above. Local people would be best to ask if she's in a native speaking area. Failing that she could contact a Scots Gaelic association and ask them.

Good wishes and I hope your sister will be happy in her new home
Best wishes
Beith

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Postby Rocas Faol 777 » 20 Mar 2007, 20:13

Greetings


I am not as adept as Beith, I am a novice when it comes to Gàidhlig (Scottish Gaelic), but i have to agree with Beith.

If I am correct, the last offering given would likely be closest
ár n-aisling
Aisling being the Gàidhlig word for a vision/dream.  It does actually seem to come from the Irish orriginally--so Irish, Old Irish aislinge--pronounced ex-líng-ia(?), "a jump out of one-self, ecstasy".

Now when you come to the plural possessive "our", I am somewhat lost.  Perhaps Beith could help me with this one.  I included all of the references I could find simply because I am uncertain which one should be used and to show language development:

ar
   our; precedes nouns beginning with con.

ar n-
   our; precedes nouns beginning with vowel.

d'ar
   to our, precedes n. beginning with con.

d'ar n-
   to our; precedes n. beginning with vowel.

leinn
   prep.pron. with us, by us, in our possession.

le 'r
   with our, by our, for : le ar (though I am sure it would not be this one :wink: )

n-
   precedes n. beginning with vowl. when following ar, our and bhur, ur, your : ar n-aran, our bread, for : arn aran : bhur n-àite, your place, for : bhurn àite; the n was originally part of the pron.

-ne
   emph.postfix; follows n. preceded by : ar, our : ar n-athair-ne, our father (prety sure not this one either)

'r
   for : ar, our; after prep. ending in vowel.  (not you either)

ain
   ours, at us, our (from a Manx source--do not like Manx as I have not found it very helpful, but included it anyway.)


Like I said, I am a novice, hope I did not confuse or misdirect anyone--I would take Beiths advice...
Lastly, there are probably more succinct colloquial means to express that idea, which may be more suitable for a house name than the above. Local people would be best to ask if she's in a native speaking area. Failing that she could contact a Scots Gaelic association and ask them.



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Postby Beith » 21 Mar 2007, 02:42

Hi Rocas Faol, my answer here should really be in the Irish Gaelic section because I am giving examples from Irish below in reply to your above post.

Aisling is indeed an Irish Gaelic word, {Scots gaelic being part of that language group and stemming from Irish gaelic in origin} it's a feminine ia-stem noun meaning "dream" or vision", but maybe in earlier language was an -io stem noun.

Aisling is pronounced "Ashling" (not "ex-ling")
[*Old Irish Aislinge is pronounced "as-ling-eh" or maybe "ash-ling-eh"; *this is the language period of about 7-9th C AD from which all later forms right up to the most modern standard Irish, evolved] .


Possessives:

To answer your question on the plural possessives, they are:

1st plural our = ár (pronounced ore) and this nasalizes any word following it.

2nd plural "your" =  bhur (pronounced woor or voor) and earlier also "far", nasalising the following word.

3rd plural "their" = a (pronounced "ah") and nasalizing the following word.

Nasalisation: this means that the old ending of a word which used to end in a nasal sound is transferred to the beginning of the next word following it. In modern Irish, the nasalizing sound is shown in writing but in Old Irish it is only written before some letters although it is always understood to be there and is always pronounced even if not written. Nasalisation is also known as eclipsis.

In the case of your list below, the nasalization is just variously demonstrated
ar
  our; precedes nouns beginning with con.
by "with con" above it means "a noun beginning with a consonant" and the nasal sound is shown by writing another consonant before it.

eg. words beginning with the consonants c,t,p,g,b,d all get another letter before them after ár, which makes the sound nazal. Consonants like l,r,n, s stay as they are with no letter infront; f gets a "bh" in front of it to create a nasalized "v" sound.

ar n-
  our; precedes nouns beginning with vowel.
this means that an n- is written before the word beginning with the vowel (the hyphen is used optionally)



To answer your questions on the rest of list below:

The possessive pronouns are
1st singular = mo (my, mine)
2nd singular = do  (yours, singular)
3rd singular = a (his/her's/it's) each take a different mutation afterwards
1st plural =    ár, nasalising (ours)
2nd plural =   bhur, nasalising (yours, plural)
3rd plural =   a, nasalizing (their's)

These can be combined with other grammatical structures such as the ones you cite below

eg.
(1) As a conjugated prepositional pronoun - this means the pronoun is suffixed to a preposition. From your list below this covers:

d'ár (do + ár) = to our
d'ár (di/de + ár) = from our, etc.  
leinn (le + nn (inn,unn,on) = with us, by us, in our possession.

le 'r (le + ár) earlier "lar" (l'ár)   with our, by our, for : le ar


(2) with a noun and emphasizing particle which refers back to the posessive pronoun:

eg. ar n-athair-ne ~ the ne (also ni) is a 1st plural emphasizer so when combined with the noun following the pronoun ár, it emphasizes this really is OUR father. eg. "our own father"...that sort of emphasis.


Best wishes
Beith

ps. someone else would have to do this for you for Scots gaelic as I have never learned it and don't speak it. It's probably not too far different.

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Eoin Dubh
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Postby Eoin Dubh » 21 Mar 2007, 05:33

In Scottish Gaelic it would be ar n-aisling. Without the accent mark. An interesting word is ar. It can mean seems or our without the accent and either ploughing, slaughter or a kidney with the accent. Probably more than you want to know.  :whistle:
Last edited by Eoin Dubh on 21 Mar 2007, 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Beith » 21 Mar 2007, 17:08

Hi Eoin,

you hit on the "problem" with gaelic there in your example of ár/ar. There are tons of different meanings to this word (and others of course) depending on whether it has the sineadh fada - the length mark " á ", which makes it phonetically and sense-wise distinct from words that don't have it "a" (distinct in pronunciation that is. not always in orthography -as in old manuscripts the scribes often leave out the length marks so you have to know it is this word "ár" and not "ar" based on context).

Short words like "ar" are tricky because they have so many different meanings depending on their variable use as
(a) a preposition
(b) a conjunction
(c) an adverb
(d) to introduce a relative clause
(d) as a proclitic pre-verbal particle annexed to the "body" or stressed part of a verb
(e) a noun (eg. ar = tiled land)
(f) the middle Irish variant of old Irish "ol" - "says" (ar sé/ol sé. in modern Irish = arsa sé)
(and that's probably not even covering the full remit!)

When accented with the length mark you get the pronoun (1st plural) ár "our" and words as you pointed out meaning " slaughter, defeat, etc".  

A couple of questions then to veer all this Irish Gaelic into Scots Gaelic seeing as we are in that forum!!

1. I never knew of a meaning of ár as "dream" - that's interesting - did you find that meaning in Scots Gaelic or could that be a mixing up of the meaning of aisling?

2. In Scots Gaelic even though you write "ar" without the accent as often per Old Irish, do you pronounce the accent or not?}

ie. the nasalization on aisling (n-aisling) which follows "ar" clearly shows it is the pronoun "ár +n-" meaning "our", but it's interesting for me to know phonetically whether you say "ore" in Scots gaelic or if you say "ar" ?


Thanks very much!

All the best
Beith

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Postby Eoin Dubh » 21 Mar 2007, 17:51

Sorry Beith it was late. I edited my post to change it to "our:.
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Postby Beith » 22 Mar 2007, 13:31

Hey Eoin, no need to apologise or edit!! I was just wondering in case you had mis-typed "dream" as this was the main topic or whether there was indeed a meaning in S.G for ár as dream (which was new to me). Thanks for the clarification.

yours with heavily accented ár's!!

Beith

oh - ps. do you know as regards the pronunciation thing, do they say "ore" in S.G for ár or render it without the accent in pronunication? (ie. as "ar" not "ore"). In Ulster here, the accents are a bit different to Munster or Connacht Gaeilge and Ulster is perhaps more similar to Scots Gáidhlig in pronunciation but just wondered if you know, as a learner of the latter?  thanks!

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Postby Eoin Dubh » 23 Mar 2007, 05:32

The main difference seems to be that S.G has settled on the ì type of accent. They used to have both but dumped the í. I will have to dig out my grammer book to figure out the pronunciation but it is probably similar to the Irish.
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Postby Brock » 29 Mar 2007, 01:09

Hiya everyone, sorry i'ts taken me so long to get back to you.

   Thanks for all your help, I rather like Aisling duinn (a dream to us) I shall be seeing her tomorrow so shall give her all your options and she can take it from there.
  She's got someone viewing her house tomorrow so i'm keeping my fingers crossed for her, it's something she's always wanted to do and being in her late fifties and in poor health she says if she don't do it now she never will,(mmm looks like some holidays in Scotland coming up :D )
 thanks again
                   brock


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