How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

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How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Crinia » 16 Jul 2015, 18:40

Hello

Could someone please advise me on the pronounciation of the Irish family name Ó Cobhthaigh.
Thanks you

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby treegod » 16 Jul 2015, 21:06

I've had a quick look on the Wiki page, and the analsis is roughly "awe COH-high" (oh as in oh!). Maybe someone with living knowledge of it can tell us instead of a suspiciously anglophone interpretation of Wiki data ;)

Apparently the Anglicised version of the name is Coffey, which at a guess might be pronounced liked coffee. With English spelling who knows :shrug:

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Coillte » 16 Jul 2015, 21:28

It depends on your flavour - O CO-he, O CO-fee or even O COVE-hig. I would go with the second.

Edit, as above, that's O as in Oh. And indeed, the Anglo version is pronounced Coffee.
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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Fil.F. » 17 Jul 2015, 03:10

On Irish gaelic, "B+H=P", this came from the P Celtic. This is called by Cormac a transmutation of sound or wood transmutation.
By that relation the phoneme stay for the letter sign, as well the wood stay for the tree.

The letter C have the sound of K.

And a diphtong is facultative to pronounce: the first vowel or the second vowel on the phonetic syllable.

So the spelling it is as folows:

1st
"Ó Koptá"

2nd
"Ó Koptí"


Perhaps from the latim word "coptica", like the english "copt" meaning "egyptian" or "christian egyptian".


One more note: The explains for the pronounce like "Coffee" came from the arabic words for it, but the "f" have the sound of "P":

"The word Copt was adopted in English in the 17th century, from New Latin Coptus, Cophtus, which is derived from Arabic collective qubṭ / qibṭ قبط "the Copts" with nisba adjective qubṭī, qibṭī قبطى, plural aqbāṭ أقباط; Also quftī, qiftī, Arabic /f/ representing historical Coptic /p/. an Arabisation of the Coptic word kubti (Bohairic) and/or kuptaion (Sahidic). The Coptic word is in turn an adaptation of the Greek Αἰγύπτιος Aigýptios "Egyptian" ultimately related to Caphtor".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Coillte » 17 Jul 2015, 08:44

That's a nice historical explanation FilF. In my part of Munster, B+H is not a P. Well, there may be a few examples. More generally, B+H is either pronounced W or V
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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby treegod » 17 Jul 2015, 09:30

It depends on your flavour - O CO-he, O CO-fee or even O COVE-hig. I would go with the second.
[non-native amateur phonetics]
Having had a slightly more thorough look, the first one looks like a likely suspect. It's phonetic transcription could be rendered /oː 'kəu.hiː/
I have the details from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_orthography
Ó as in póg or armónach
C as in cáis or mac
OBH as in lobhar (before, I'd analysed 'o' and 'bh' separately, where as one unit it has a different effect)
TH as in thaisce or athair
AIGH as in bacaigh (the same, I'd analysed 'ai' and 'gh' separately)

But that's just one dialect among many with no standard (not sure which one Wikipedia uses). There must be as many ways of saying it as there are green zones on this map lol.
[/non-native amateur phonetics]

I love the orthography and the whole 'broad-slender' thing. Makes for a very interesting (if somewhat confusing) aesthetic. :)

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Coillte » 17 Jul 2015, 10:12

There must be as many ways of saying it as there are green zones on this map lol.
Quite. It can also depend very much on what you are eating at the time. To talk authentic Gaeilge, it is advisable to begin with your mouth full. I find it impossible to capture true phonetics in transliterations. Something always seems a miss, especially the 'breath and phlegm' quality of Celtic languages.
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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Crinia » 18 Jul 2015, 07:48

Ó as in póg or armónach
C as in cáis or mac
OBH as in lobhar (before, I'd analysed 'o' and 'bh' separately, where as one unit it has a different effect)
TH as in thaisce or athair
AIGH as in bacaigh (the same, I'd analysed 'ai' and 'gh' separately)
Thanks everyone
Above is what I was getting from the tiny bit of Gaeligh I know (Scottish). But I assumed Irish pronunciation would be different. The Anglicised version I am working with is Coffey.
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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Fil.F. » 18 Jul 2015, 23:07

Remember, the Gaelic language can be read or pronouciated like Latin. As the example shows:

Aqua Vitae (Latin).
Uisge Beatha (Gaelic word for Whisky, meaning life's water).

The pronounciation of the gaelic word "beatha", is a little similarlly on sound of the latin word, simply : ("vita").

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby treegod » 19 Jul 2015, 09:16

I don't know, that's a bit like saying that French can be read and pronounced like Latin. I'm sure if you look at an IPA transcriptions of beatha and vita, you'd have diferent results. X-SAMPA transcriptions would show /'bE.h@/ for Gaelic and I suppose /'vi.ta/ for Latín.

Edit: Wiktionary shows /'wi:.ta/ for vita and /'b_ja.h@/ for Irish beatha (sorry, x-sampa again. I'm on the phone and IPA is difficult to transcribe here).

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Coillte » 19 Jul 2015, 11:02

No, Geailge may have a Latin alphabet but she most certainly cannot be pronounced like Latin. She sounds totally different. There will be isolated examples of course but listening to people from Munster in the midst of a 'giob gab' is nothing akin to listening to an academic preach in Latin from the ivory pulpit. There is no comparison at all. The best way to learn Irish pronounciarion is to perhaps listen to some TV shows on TG4. These are usually subtitled in English. There is a nice TV series called comhrá deposited on youtube.
"Glaine Ár gCroí, Neart Ár nGéag Is Beart Dá Réir Ár mBriathar"

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby treegod » 19 Jul 2015, 12:17

Beatha and vita may be cognates from the same Proto-Indo-European source (possibly *gʷih₃wo-teh₂) but centuries of sound changes make them completely different. For this reason, and grammatical changes, I can't understand Old English.

French vie and Spanish vida are derived from vita, but are phonetically distinct. X-SAMPA transcriptions are /vi/ and /'bi.Da/ respectively. I'm sure it must be different in Portuguese.

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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Fil.F. » 20 Jul 2015, 04:03

Yes treegod I agree with your contributions ... I do this comparison by the fact which "b" have the sound of "v"
and in some cases or isolated the "th" a sound of "t" or "d". However, I am treating the Middle Irish based on the
Auracept, today the "th" have the sound of "rr". According to the text consonants, vowels, semi-vowels and mutes
are treated with similarity in Latin and Gaelic grammars. Image


For not miss the content line of my arguments, the reading of the Gaelic as Latin is possible but occasyonally, for this reason
there is the "Sua apte", a hybrid of Gaelic and Latin language. Follows some quotations from the author of the introduction:


Image
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Re: How to pronounce Ó Cobhthaigh

Postby Coillte » 25 Aug 2015, 14:09

Those quotes merely refer to the fact that 'Irish' latin manuscripts have glosses and aphorisms and all manner of wistful departures (like Pangur Ban!) in their margins. I don't believe these quotes relate to pronunciation but rather interpretation - occasionally the latin texts illuminate the gaelic musings of the scribes but more often, the gaelic text is an interpretation or musing on the latin text itself.
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