Vegetarianism

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Vegetarianism

Postby day_2k » 19 Jan 2011, 10:21

Hi All,

Being new to the Druid path and new here, I have a question that although simple I feel may raise some strong opinions:

As a Druid, is becoming a Vegetarian encouraged/required?

What are the social implications of choosing either path of pabulation with regards to getting along with other druids as well as the druid ideas/ideals and morals on this?

(Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I did a search but didn't find anything)

Thank you!

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Davin Raincloud » 19 Jan 2011, 11:09

Vegetarianism/Veganism is neither encouraged nor required. It's not discouraged either.

It simply has nothing to do with being a Druid. ie. It's not a requirement.

People are free to adopt that ideology or not.

If people choose to adopt that ideology and make that part of their Druidry, then so be it.

That's as matter of fact as I can make it.

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Badger Bob » 19 Jan 2011, 12:08

There is a fair bit of evidence that ancient Druidry was far from vegetarian, ritual feasting on bulls and so on, so very few modern Druid groups promote vegetarianism as an integral part of their view of Druidry. One thing I would say is integral to many expressions of Druidry is that of mindful consumption. Thinking about what you consume, it's impact on the world around you and yourself is a part of my Druidry and that of many others. If another person's thinking extends this idea to vegetarianism then that is fine but it isn't compulsory. This thinking about consumption isn't limited to meat though, there are many things to consider such as food miles, land usage, pesticides, packaging and so on. It's one of those areas where you have to work out your own compromises.

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 19 Jan 2011, 12:36

As a Druid, is becoming a Vegetarian encouraged/required?
The OBOD doesn't really require anything of you (except a valid credit card #...haha!...I kid!)...not sure about other Druid orders...and I've found members of OBOD are pretty representative of the broader community on most issues, including vegetarianism, which means as primarily Westerners, we have a strong cultural resistance to vegetarianism, which means the vast majority of OBODians, and probably Druids you will encounter will be omnivores.
What are the social implications of choosing either path of pabulation with regards to getting along with other druids as well as the druid ideas/ideals and morals on this?
(pabulation is a terrific word, btw)

If your goal is to get along with the most druids possible, by all means, keep eating meat. You will be patted on the back heartily and passed a horn of mead and a KFC Double Down. If your goal is to live by ecological and moral ideals, you should become a vegetarian. If you are a very careful omnivore, which most people will claim to be, but almost nobody is, you might be able to lessen the damage you do by meat eating, but the reality is you will be doing more to harm the environment (and perhaps your mind, body and soul) than any car driving and flying you do combined.

If you are studying both sides of the issue, this board, which is particularly (rabidly?!) pro-meat (not surprising if you study the board demographics), should provide you with a good overview of the arguments based on ignorance of modern meat production (the Celts were omnivores, we evolved as omnivores, etc.) or which display what a good friend of mine here on the board refers to as "cognitive dissonance" (although he uses the term with air travel).


now sit back and watch the factory-farmed feathers fly!
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Astrid » 20 Jan 2011, 12:02

I do agree with most of whats been said by the others but that wont keep me from adding my 2 cents :D

I thought a lot about what kind of eating habits would be most consistant with druidry and I have and do still periodically consider going vegan

In druidry I think one oth the most essential ideas is to respect and honor nature and all its creatures.
So when I would consider turning vegan for druidism its mainly because of the unrespectfull and factory like way in which we produce egg, milk, meat and so on. In my mind its disgusting and unacceptable and even buying organic meats, milk and eggs does not necessarily mean that the animals had a great natural life in fact far from it.

When it comes to social implications, I agree with Dj drood that they will probably be the same as in the rest of society, So if you want to know about them you can visit vegan/vegetarian associations and they will often have great articles and what the implications can be and how best to accomodate them and ofcourse there are a lot of great forums full of vegan and vegetarian people that have a lot of experience they can share.

I think wheter or not you should become vegan/vegetarian is a completly personal choice that you got to make within you heart for yourself and no one can make that choice for you.

My personal reasoning for not becoming completly vegan is a some what pracmatic at this point - there is a lot of horrible things in the world that i wish i could fight all at ones but their is a limit to how many fronts you can fight at once (just ask Hitler or Napoloeon :D ). So I do the best I can where I am at this point in time and make the changes I can and then keep building on it as more becomes avalible.

Hope it is usable :D
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 12:41

I think wheter or not you should become vegan/vegetarian is a completly personal choice that you got to make within you heart for yourself and no one can make that choice for you.
Not entirely Astrid...I would put it the other way..if you chose to eat meat, in the quantities and style that people today eat meat, you are buying into a system of pollution and cruelty, not to mention antibiotic overuse, growth hormones and disease breeding grounds...I agree that it is a "personal choice", but like all choices, some can be good or bad, and they can effect others.
My personal reasoning for not becoming completly vegan is a some what pracmatic at this point - there is a lot of horrible things in the world that i wish i could fight all at ones but their is a limit to how many fronts you can fight at once
What could be easier and require less effort from a person than choosing not to eat frankenchicken?
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Astrid » 20 Jan 2011, 13:49

I think wheter or not you should become vegan/vegetarian is a completly personal choice that you got to make within you heart for yourself and no one can make that choice for you.
Not entirely Astrid...I would put it the other way..if you chose to eat meat, in the quantities and style that people today eat meat, you are buying into a system of pollution and cruelty, not to mention antibiotic overuse, growth hormones and disease breeding grounds that most definitely effects other people...
I agree with what you say that of course the consequence of eating animal products remain the same. The personal choice lies in whether or not you feel you can live with causing those consequences or not.
My personal reasoning for not becoming completly vegan is a some what pracmatic at this point - there is a lot of horrible things in the world that i wish i could fight all at ones but their is a limit to how many fronts you can fight at once
What could be easier and require less effort from a person than choosing not to eat frankenchicken? I agree that it is a "personal choice", but like all choices, some can be good or bad, and they can effect others.
I don’t know what frankenchicken is but I’m assuming it is a vegan or vegetarian substitute for chicken :D . Maybe I should be a little more elaborate on what I mean when I said that last thing. Because I agree if you can use a vegetarian or vegan product for something as easily as you can use an animal product then what could be easier? So I have implemented all those “easy” ones already in my life. So I don’t drink milk I always use soymilk, ricemilk or oatmilk instead, I buy the soyspreadcheese instead of the normal spread cheese, I buy sesam nuggets instead of chicken nuggets and so on. So my breakfast & lunch is always vegan and if I’m the one cooking dinner I’ll cook a vegan dinner, but I’m not completely vegan because I havn’t got up the mental determination or investment to go all the way yet. So when I’m out for an event or my hubby cooks dinner I’ll eat meat, cheese and so on. I’m aware that in that sense I cause harm to the animals but I do cause harm on a daily basis in a lot of ways. For example when I buy a shirt for 50 crowns (5£) I know I’m probably able to do that cause some Chinese girl is working her ass off for practically no money somewhere in the orient. And I know that when I buy 5 kilos of American rice for half the normal price then somewhere some poor rice farmer can’t feed his family because American rice companies are dumping their prices.
So that’s what I mean by the fact that there are a lot of horrible things happening in the world that I as a consumer can protest against through my choices of consumption. However I can’t do it all at once, at least not me personally, I have to take one thing, change it, make it a habit and then move on to the next thing, change it, make it a habit, etc. For me those things have to be implemented in a way that is sustainable both for my mind and my economy.
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 14:01

I don’t know what frankenchicken is but I’m assuming it is a vegan or vegetarian substitute for chicken :D
No, it is the chicken people put on their forks..the genetically engineered, chemical filled creatures on factory farms...my references are mostly North American..perhaps Sweden still has farmers with "heritage" animals running around in the barnyard (what a gift for a chicken, to be physically able to walk), living healthy lives for their species....that mostly diappeared in the 1950's here....I'm refering to the biological freaks many people over here eat. (about .5% of meat is raised ethically..the market is cornered by factory farms...not even farms...meat production facilities....it is an insult to our farmer friends and ancestors to call them that.....which makes me wonder where the legions of "ethical meat" eaters find their product.)

The Buddhists actually make good meat analogues....go to an Asian food store and you can usually find ham/chicken even lamb that fits well in meat recipes...there are also very good ground soy products for tacos and the like....ordered pizza last night...lovely pesto, olive and peppers concoction for me, and I had to get a slice of "meat lovers" for my kid..."deliciously seasoned with baby animal tears", I told him, but he ignored me. If I tried to "force" my food choices on him, he would pound me...all that growth hormone he consumes has made him very powerful and irritable.

By the way, the Pythagorians were vegetarian (an early term for vegetarians was "pythagorians"), and there was classical speculation that the Druids were heavily influenced, or heavily influenced, Pythagoras, Ipso facto, the ancient Druids were vegetarians...perhaps the hoi polloi Celts ate meat occasionally, but The Enlightened Ones did not. Vegetarianism is the only Reconstructionist choice, unless you are reconstructing the ignornat peasants, in which case, carry on.
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Badger Bob » 20 Jan 2011, 15:05

....which makes me wonder where the legions of "ethical meat" eaters find their product.
Readily available here in the UK, just quite expensive. I have three butchers shops within walking distance where the animals are reared on proper farms, out in the fields and without growth hormones or other unpleasantness. A properly reared chicken will set you back about £8-£10 compared to £5ish for a ready cooked one from Tesco. My sister gets her chickens from a local farm where she has to kill, draw and pluck her own but I dont eat meat these days, just the odd trout or grayling if the fish are biting.

I'm not convinced that ancient druids were completely vegetarian but I do know that we eat far more meat now than we did even 40 years ago. When I was growing up in the 70s meat was a once a week treat, there would be a joint of beef or a chicken for Sunday lunch and that was pretty much it for the weekly meat ration, one meal and as long as you could spin out the leftovers. There might be the odd rasher of bacon in winter but it was unusual to eat meat more than three times a week. These days many people eat two meat meals a day and demand cheap meat in order to be able to continue consuming at such a rate. This is what is driving factory farming, overconsumption by an uncaring consumer.

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 15:13

A properly reared chicken will set you back about £8-£10 compared to £5ish for a ready cooked one from Tesco.
Those are the bane, aren't they? I think that is what pushed me over the edge....tired after work...what's for dinner?..oh, I dunno...BBQ chicken again?...they are sitting right there...little plastic tray...enough chicken meat for 2 people for dinner then lunch....it wasn't as hard for me...I never really liked chicken unless it was covered in tons of sauce....then I realized one day that i could still have the sauce....wife loves chicken almost more than she loves me, however....it is a struggle.
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Astrid » 20 Jan 2011, 16:11

I just watched this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 with Gary Yourofsky. Hw is a very in your face and the video is like 1 hour and 10 minutes but he makes some of the best and comprehensive arguments I've heard in a long time - and he is quite funny at times :D

They only way to truly get meat that is "ethically correct" is to either rear them yourself and slaughter them yourself or do as badger bob and go somewhere where you can come anytime and see that the animals live under good condition and where you can see that the animals are slaughter as humanly as possible.

I've seen videos from the states and i do think that your animal factories are the worst and so extreme that I can barly comprehend it. In Sweden we have some of the best animal welfare rules in the world but stilll it's horrible how animals are treated in the commercial industry but Sweden also have one of the highest numbers vegetarian/vegans compared to how many we are. I read that in Malmö 1 in 10 children between the age of 3 and 8 vegetarians or vegans.

I'm so lucky that my hubby supports me he thinks that the whole vegan thought is very beautiful and he only cares that he gets his protein and he dosnt really care if it came from a plant or an animal - so even though he does not want to become vegan or vegetarian that does make my life a lot easier than most people trying to change their eating habits.

thanks for the tips on the Asians stores I'm going to investigate my options asap on that one :D
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 16:16

I've seen videos from the states and i do think that your animal factories are the worst and so extreme that I can barly comprehend it.
I just finished a book called "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Safran Foer, and although I'm a horror movie fan, there were sections I simply couldn't read and skipped over.

http://www.eatinganimals.com/
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 17:03

Day_2k, do you have any objections to me using your thread as a "catch all" for this topic?
One of British Columbia's largest meat processing plants covered up lab results that showed a sample of its product was contaminated with the deadly E. coli O157 strain, CBC News has learned.

The coverup came to light when Daniel Land, who oversaw the plant's quality assurance, contacted CBC News, saying officials at Pitt Meadows Meats Ltd. told him to keep quiet about the positive test result obtained on Sept. 9.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/b-c-meat-plant ... 7-166.html
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Astrid » 20 Jan 2011, 17:08

that looks like a great book I'll have to go see if they can get it at the library :grin:

I like the fact that it seems he just took it down and extra level and also investigated the motivians and context of eating meat
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 20 Jan 2011, 17:29

that looks like a great book I'll have to go see if they can get it at the library :grin:

I like the fact that it seems he just took it down and extra level and also investigated the motivians and context of eating meat

It is very readable, and he makes every effort to allow meat producers, ethical or otherwise, to express themselves in their own words. The 20th century genetic history of poultry and pigs in particular is very interesting, and discussions of animal socialization and intelligence...bird-brains indeed....
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Bartholomew » 20 Jan 2011, 21:07

I'm going to become a vegatarian from tomorrow. I have been on the verge and if I have to prepare a chicken with legs on for the oven I can't always eat it. The smell of mince meat and the fat floating on the top makes me heave. If I have processed ham or other meat on a sandwich I can take one bite and think I am eating a skin sandwich, so put it in the bin.Black pudding is pig's blood and something I couldn't eat and apparently sausages in England are full of minced up eyes and testicles and all the other things you really wouldn't want to eat. I say apparently because I am a consumer not a provider. Tales on the street and all that.
And today I walked past a butchers with pheasants hanging outside on meat hooks. Beautiful feathers and dead eyes. Fruit and nuts with a liberal spraying of pesticides from the local supermarket just work wonders. Back in the garden in a couple of months for me home grown veggies. If I am still living here of course.

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby day_2k » 24 Jan 2011, 18:09

Wow,

Sorry guys, I did reply to this thread on Friday but it seems it didn’t go up.

My main point then was I will have now consider things that in the past had not crossed my mind, such as the distance that food travels. But does this apply to fruit and veg too? and what are the "costs" involved with making, packaging and marketing the Tofu replacements?

Since then this thread has gone wild :) I like provoking interesting conversation!

I think I have issues with becoming vegetarian mainly due to having lived most of my life without a thought to the contrary, to me eating meat seems like a very logical thing to do, and would if the ancient Celts had access to meat as easily as we do now I'm sure they would have eaten more.

The hanging of a pheasant in a shop window feels totally natural, sure it’s dead and that is sad but if i was living off the land I wouldn't think twice about hunting a pheasant. (and it is certainly a lot more respectful way to see it there than to imagine all the poor chickens in a factory farm)

When I food shop now, there are many things to consider, how was the animal treated, where was it raised, what conditions was it transported, how has it been stored, what went on with the preparation, what is the packaging made from and how can it be recycled etc etc etc. I takes a lot more time than it used to! ( I don’t suppose anyone has any resources that help me work out which products from what shops are ethically more sound? )

For someone living on their own who has never quite grasped the idea of cooking or how to make nice meals, vegetables to me mean frozen cauliflower or broccoli and limiting my diet to this seems a very depressing thought.

I think that consumerism is to blame and I hold my hands up to being a nasty evil consumer for the most part of my life, I am trying to change... it hurts!

Something that has struck me lately though is more related to that fact that there are just way too many humans on this planet.

DJ... no I have no issue with this being a general conversation on vegetarianism, but would be nice to hear from some pro-carnivore supporters to balance the argument.

Thank you for all your thoughts suggestions ideas and lack of judgement! :)

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Badger Bob » 24 Jan 2011, 18:16

... would be nice to hear from some pro-carnivore supporters to balance the argument.
I'm having a nice fat rainbow trout for my dinner tonight does that count? I caught it the back end of last year in a small pool on the river Derwent where it fell to one of my "special" black spiders tied with black cat fur. It has been in my fish store for a while but it will be absolutely delicious with some home grown herbs and locally sourced butter, turnip, parsnip and roast beetroot.

Don't worry, I was very humane.

Yum!

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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 18:37

DJ... no I have no issue with this being a general conversation on vegetarianism, but would be nice to hear from some pro-carnivore supporters to balance the argument.

I thought I sent a hound into the bushes, but I guess the carnivores are shy...maybe embarrassed....
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Re: Vegetarianism

Postby Aurora » 25 Jan 2011, 00:51

This has been interesting and i will have to check out the books mentioned earlier.

I am currently a meat eater, but am getting very fussy about it now as i want to know how the animals were raised, fed and treated, how they are transported and slaughtered. The effect of raising said animals on my environment is also important too. The animal products I consume most are Dairy, chicken and small amounts of beef and lamb. The latter 2 i am trying to reduce more and even phase out. I have recently found an orgainc butcher who lists next to his products the farms where they came from and they will give you their contact details so you can visit them if you want to, so am starting to do that so i can see for myself how the animals are treated.

When it comes to vegetables i'm doing my best to get stuff from my region as the impact of buying fruit or vegies that have come half way across the world to get to me is also pretty bad.

So in the end i'm trying to consume less in all areas and am trying to make as informed a choice as i can when i do buy anything.
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