gorhemmynnadow

Subforum for Cornish language studies and posts.
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wyeuro
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gorhemmynnadow

Postby wyeuro » 19 Oct 2006, 08:01

gorhemmynnadow pub den oll,
greetings everybody!

ass yw kosel an bagas ma!  my re beu ow studhya kernow nowydh ha
how quiet this group is.       i have been studying cornwall modern and

koth hag yth esa lies lowarth ha bleujennow yn kernow yn termyn
olden, and there were a lot of gardens and flowers in cornwall in times
 
eus passyes, dell hevel dhymm.  yn sur yma lies  lowarthow bleujennow
gone by, as it seems to me.        for sure, there are many flower gardens

ena lemmyn, mes martesen yth esa moy bleujennow, a-ugh oll ros,
there now,     but perhaps there were more flowers, especially roses,

kyns dalleth agan lyvrow yn kever hengernow.  
before our books of old cornwall begin.

yth esa lies bleujenn prenys ha gwerthy yn termyn pur goth
there were many people buying and selling flowers in ancient times.

martesen y feu re an bleujennow na tevys yn kernow?
perhaps some of those flowers were grown in cornwall?

dhywgh yn lel

wyverne /|\

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Beith
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Postby Beith » 14 Nov 2006, 12:32

HI Wyverne!

That is really nicely written out. Just looking at some of the words I can see their eqivalent in Old/mod Irish.  eg.

ass yw kosel an bagas ma!  my re beu ow studhya kernow nowydh ha
how quiet this group is.       i have been studying cornwall modern and


My re beu - looks like ro-bá in Old Irish (perfect of verb bí)
ow studhya - the "ow" looks like "oc" (Mod Irish = ag) and I would guess 'studhya' is the verbal noun formation (staidéir) in mod Irish.

When I look at the word bleujennow - it's clearly "bláthanna" (pron Blaw-hanna") in mod Irish.  And lyvrow looks like "lebor"  in Old Irish (pron. "levor" and in mod Irish "leabhar" pron. low-ur))

What also strikes me (though may just be speculation on my part from a quick read over this passage) is that some of it looks like a mix of phonetic latin/english-german type sounds:

eg. yn termyn eus passyes  with a translation of "in times gone by" (looks like "in times passed"  and even the word "moy" (more) is like the word "moy" (sp?) in Spanish that also means "more")

Then I see prenys which is crenid in Old Irish (verb for "buys")


so some questions if you don't mind, to help me better understand...

(1) What form of Cornish is this? ( is this the Unified one or the one beginning with K?)

(2) How old is this do you know? as in - who/when reconstructed? The reason I'm asknig here is that I see forms in there that match old Irish verbs (eg. perfect of bí) and some that are more like mod Irish (dating to about 13thC) ~ do you think this form of Cornish dates somewhere in between?

(3) Is there a phonetic reconstruction within this form of the language? eg. yn termyn eus passyes  sounds phonetically like latin "terminus" albeit different meaning here.

I know I'm just being wildly speculative there but am interested to learn more.

Thanks v much!
Beith

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wyeuro
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Postby wyeuro » 17 Nov 2006, 00:18

dydh da, a beith!

yes, i'm excited by such similarities too.  
the "ow" looks like "oc" (Mod Irish = ag)
i see these as p- and q- forms of the original whatever that was, and i'll add that i think the english  a- as in "going a-milking" is yet another form.
bleujennow - it's clearly "bláthanna
but here the similarity is incidental.  it's not evident in the singular: bleujenn /bláth.  i see bleujennow as being formed from bleu, which is a form of bláth, and jenn which is an ethnic group, from which the name jennifer comes and also words like jynn, cornish for engine, and many others.  so it means the jenn people's flower, distinguishing i think cultivars from wildflowers, since there was an extensive flower trade in the past as now.  the -ow plural ending is a form of the english 'all' - the 'flower-all'.  i see the irish -anna plural ending as related to the english 'any'.  flower, bláth, and bleu (the u once was v) all seem to me to go back to a common ancestor something like flava; and are not, as is usually suggested, derived from latin, but the flos floris of latin shares the common ancestor with them.
yn termyn eus passyes  with a translation of "in times gone by" (looks like "in times passed"
yes, it's similarity is very exciting to me.  eus is simply a relaxed pronunciation of 'is' "time (which) is passed", but is used very differently.  i get the feeling that a lot of etymology being done on cornish now cringes away from these similarities for fear of finding them mere borrowings from english, but it's more complex than that.  

muy is the spanish form of moy, for more. cornish has many spanish words.

to answer your questions:
(1) this is kernewek kemmyn - ordinary.
(2) the basis is drawn from mostly medieval mss but much has been added from more recent texts, (which tend to be dilute by english, but still offer many echt words), and some improvising with bretonek and even welsh borrowings.  the whole story is here:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cornish.htm
(3) i'm not sure what you mean by a phonetic reconstruction.  the spelling was very various (as shakespearean spelling was) and so there's been a lot of dispute over normalisation. the kemmyn spellings don't attempt to represent 'authentic' cornish spellings, but they simplify it for easy learning and everyday use in the future.

i'll add that learning it alongside modern irish has shed wonderful sidelights on both languages for me, as well as english, and if you know some spanish, latin and greek too the view is spectacular!!!!!!. add dutch and more insight becomes possible.  i'm convinced that i'll need danish too before i can say too much more.  :grin:  so if you can fit in even a glance at it with all your other work, the standard course (http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cornish.htm) is demanding, but there are many that you can take at your own pace.
http://members.lycos.nl/siteklj/KDG/

peace and light

wyverne /|\
the

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ennys
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Re: gorhemmynnadow

Postby ennys » 24 Mar 2009, 10:49

This is a VERY old topic, but I just happen to read it, and to be interested...I can make quite some soup of Cornish, it is close to Breton, only the spelling is very different - I am going to open a new topic.

xx
Ennys, who had found a new field of interest.
Dancing to the music of the Web
Etre ar mor hag an neñv hag an douar


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