Raven in Cornish?

Subforum for Cornish language studies and posts.
User avatar
Fitheach
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2762
Joined: 08 Feb 2003, 21:46
Gender: Female
Location: "Tir na Darach", California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Raven in Cornish?

Postby Fitheach » 25 Jul 2009, 19:41

How do you say Raven in Cornish? I read somewhere it's VRAN, but I wanted to check with you all. I know that the symbol of Cornwall is a cousin of Raven, the Cornish Chough - Palores in Cornish.
Tha gliocas an ceann an fhitich
Image Image Image

User avatar
dreamguardian
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 238
Joined: 18 Jun 2007, 16:03
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby dreamguardian » 26 Jul 2009, 12:04

It's Bran in Welsh & can mutate to Fran, pronounced vran.
Probably the funniest audience participation show around. Discounts when quoting 'pagan'. www.dreamguardian.co.uk

User avatar
Fitheach
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2762
Joined: 08 Feb 2003, 21:46
Gender: Female
Location: "Tir na Darach", California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby Fitheach » 26 Jul 2009, 15:31

Thank you, Dreamguardian. Interestingly, Bran is a universal Celtic word for Raven. It's old Gaelic for Raven, as well!
Tha gliocas an ceann an fhitich
Image Image Image

User avatar
dreamguardian
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 238
Joined: 18 Jun 2007, 16:03
Gender: Male
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby dreamguardian » 26 Jul 2009, 17:41

My mistake.

It's actually cigfran = raven & translates as meat crow & bran is crow!
Probably the funniest audience participation show around. Discounts when quoting 'pagan'. www.dreamguardian.co.uk

User avatar
Kernos
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5152
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 16:19
Gender: Male
Location: Lost in the Woods in the Ozarks, USA
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby Kernos » 27 Jul 2009, 17:50

_________
Thank you, Dreamguardian. Interestingly, Bran is a universal Celtic word for Raven. It's old Gaelic for Raven, as well!
Interesting question, Fitheach. I found this site, Celtic Male Names of Cornwall which is interesting in itself.

The pertinent name is
Branwalather — (bran-wa-LATH-uhr) from Cornish bran "raven" + walather "leader". A saint and son of a Cornish king named Kenen.
The Following defination is taken from The Lexicon Cornu-Britannicum: A DICTIONARY OF THE ANCIENT CELTIC LANGUAGE OF CORNWALL 1865 which has been digitized:
(the 'a''s in the actual dictionary are 'á'. The OCR may not be not quite accurate, as 'Raven may be "Bran erás" and not "Bran was". But the Cornish
"WAS, s. m. A servant, a fellow. An cuth was gof, the old smith fellow. P.C. 1695. Ty a'n guysk avel cauch was, thou strikest like a coward. P.C. 2103. Tywan, dm gynen yn mes a dhcsempys, thou fellow, come with us out immediately. R.D. 1827. A mutation of gwas, qd. v."
And there is a relationship with Raven and Servant. So, perhaps Raven is Brán was. ANd, there is no 'erás' in this lexicon.

I suggest you compare the PDF version with the TXT version.
BRAN, s. f. A crow. PI. bryny. Bran was, a raven,
i.e. a great crow, called also marchvran. Bran dre, a
town crow. Gallas an glaw dhe ves gwldn, ha'n dour
my a gres basseys ; da yw yn mes dyllo bran, mars es dor
sech war an beys, the rain is clean gone away, and the
water, I believe, abated ; it is well to send out a crow,
if it be dry ground over the world. O. M. 1099. Does
ny vynnas an vrdn vrds, neb carryn hya gafas, the raven
would not return, some carrion she has found. C.W.
178. Hos, payon, colom, grugyer, bargos, bryny, ha'n er,
moy dredhofa vydh hymvys, duck, peacock, pigeon, par-
tridge, kite, crows, and the eagle further by me are
named. O.M. 133. W. bran, pi. brain. Arm. bran,
pl. brini. Ir. bran. Gael. bran. Slav, vran, wran.


Kernos
:zen:
ImageImageImageHelp I'm Falling Thru A Hole in the Flag

"Time is the Image of Eternity."

Time is the Fire in which we burn.

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby ennys » 27 Jul 2009, 20:03

In Breton it is bran, ar vran (raven, the raven), 'cause raven is a female word...

I'm having here a Cornish-english dictionairy, that says that bran, plural brini, means crow, and bran vras 'big crow' means raven. So brini bras for the plural 'ravens'. I have no dictionairy the other way around so can't really check up for synonyms, sorry. But I am pretty sure this is the right word, as it is in all the surviving celtic languages.

For fans of historical linguistics: Brythonic *brana

xx
Ennys
Dancing to the music of the Web
Etre ar mor hag an neñv hag an douar

User avatar
Kernos
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5152
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 16:19
Gender: Male
Location: Lost in the Woods in the Ozarks, USA
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby Kernos » 27 Jul 2009, 20:52

bran-cornish-brit-lexicon.png
Actual scan of Bran vran (?was, ?eran) and marchvran
bran-cornish-brit-lexicon.png (27.16 KiB) Viewed 5834 times
I think you are right ennys. The letters between Bran and the comma are not very distinct, But, it is could be vras was or eras; marchvran is below.

:zen:
ImageImageImageHelp I'm Falling Thru A Hole in the Flag

"Time is the Image of Eternity."

Time is the Fire in which we burn.

User avatar
Fitheach
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2762
Joined: 08 Feb 2003, 21:46
Gender: Female
Location: "Tir na Darach", California, U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby Fitheach » 27 Jul 2009, 22:54

Thank you all for your responses! (I collect raven names . . .)
Tha gliocas an ceann an fhitich
Image Image Image

User avatar
ennys
OBOD Bard
Posts: 469
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 19:10
Gender: Female
Location: Aberystwyth
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby ennys » 28 Jul 2009, 12:12

bran-cornish-brit-lexicon.png
I think you are right ennys. The letters between Bran and the comma are not very distinct, But, it is could be vras was or eras; marchvran is below.

:zen:
It must be vras, but indeed it is difficult to see. But I want to thank you for that link!
Dancing to the music of the Web
Etre ar mor hag an neñv hag an douar

User avatar
AndyN
Posts: 97
Joined: 16 May 2006, 19:12
Gender: Male
Location: Cornwall, UK
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby AndyN » 09 Aug 2009, 09:34

It's bran vras. The vras bit is bras, meaning great, mutated - the first letter has changed because it follows the word bran.. So bran vras means literally great crow and is the Cornish for raven.

Andy N

User avatar
Kernos
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5152
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 16:19
Gender: Male
Location: Lost in the Woods in the Ozarks, USA
Contact:

Re: Raven in Cornish?

Postby Kernos » 09 Aug 2009, 14:30

Thanks Andy. Good to hear from you again.

Bill
/|\
ImageImageImageHelp I'm Falling Thru A Hole in the Flag

"Time is the Image of Eternity."

Time is the Fire in which we burn.


Return to “Cornish”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest