Astrology and Astronomy

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Explorer
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Explorer » 12 Jul 2011, 20:58

As I've understood it the constellations didn't describe that circle, but the signs did.

Do I understand it if I say that they (1600 years ago) started the count at the spring equinox, when the sun entered the constellation AND the sign of Aries, while today the astrologers start the count at the spring equinox when the sun enters the constellation of Aries AND the sign of Pisces?
No, it is the other way around. The constellation (astronomy) is Pisces, that is where you would see the sun, and that is what describes a circle in those 240000 years.
The sign (astrology) is Aries, which is fixed, because of the tradition.
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illion
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby illion » 13 Jul 2011, 04:54

Ok, then I understand. Thank you for explaining this for me, Nico.

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Argenta » 18 Jul 2011, 21:59

Have you tried jyotish, Nico?
I think they might have a more thorough grasp of sidereal vs. tropical astrology, from the little I've seen my husband do.
(But then, I'm not into it much, so I might be just plain wrong.)
I am not young enough to know everything. (O.W.)

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Explorer » 19 Jul 2011, 06:27

Have you tried jyotish, Nico?
I think they might have a more thorough grasp of sidereal vs. tropical astrology, from the little I've seen my husband do.
(But then, I'm not into it much, so I might be just plain wrong.)
Yes, I know about it, this is indeed an astronomical accurate practise of astrology.
Which is one of the reasons why western astrology seems so odd to me.

But I haven't 'tried' it, because I don't do astrology.
Planets cannot have any physical effects on us, they are too far away. An ant pissing against a mighty oak has more effect. And the mental effect is imaginary and self-induced. I met 'astrologers' who can't even point them out in the sky, or see the difference between Saturn and Spica, or Mars and Aldebaran, but still dare to say that they are so 'influenced' by them. I love the stars and planets too much to use them as pawns in a game of spreading such falsehood.
The sun and the moon is something else ofcourse. They really influence life on earth.

It becomes different when astrology is use purely as a divination tool, imho. But because of how it is often used, astrology is tainted for me. So I prefer other methods of divination.
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Hennie » 19 Jul 2011, 07:56

The gravitational pull of Jupiter on you is bigger than the gravitational pull of a person standing 4 feet from you.

But you know this of course because the calculation of gravity is rather simple.

But as you say astrology isn't about gravity but about symbols.

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Explorer » 19 Jul 2011, 08:36

The gravitational pull of Jupiter on you is bigger than the gravitational pull of a person standing 4 feet from you.

But you know this of course because the calculation of gravity is rather simple.

But as you say astrology isn't about gravity but about symbols.
Aha, could you do that simple calculation for me then please Hennie?
And tell us how the gravitation pull of Jupiter, two people and the earth beneath our feet compare exactly?
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Explorer » 30 Jul 2011, 18:28

The gravitational pull of Jupiter on you is bigger than the gravitational pull of a person standing 4 feet from you.

But you know this of course because the calculation of gravity is rather simple.

But as you say astrology isn't about gravity but about symbols.
Aha, could you do that simple calculation for me then please Hennie?
And tell us how the gravitation pull of Jupiter, two people and the earth beneath our feet compare exactly?
How is that simple calculation coming Hennie? You've become awefully quiet now that something is asked of you. Do you need some help with it perhaps?
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Lily » 30 Jul 2011, 20:52

The sun and the moon is something else ofcourse. They really influence life on earth
Surely you know that many things folk lore attributes to the moon aren't true.

for example, my current boss is a pediatric doctor. when he was heading a maternity unit, he showed the midwives that the phase of the moon had nothing to do on the number of births (the idea goes that the full moon sends women into labour) by putting up a chart at the beginning of the year, and they put pins in for every birth. at the end of the year, they would see a nice even distribution....

also, the length of the female cycle of 28 days is an average and has nohting to do with the moon.. I'd have to believe I am particularly insensitive to these forces, as I am waaay off.
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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Hennie » 31 Jul 2011, 06:32

Perhaps this is a good analogy:

Tarot uses many real things, people in all kind of situations, animals, plants, landscapes etc. as symbols to depict psychological states. The interpretation of the cards in a given spread leads to the oracle.

In astrology planets, zodiacal signs, the rulers of the signs, the houses, the rulers of the houses, and some things more are taken as symbols, as "Tarot cards"; the spread is given by looking at the sky (or calculate the spread).

In fact in many systems, like Kabbalistic ones, astrology and tarot are combined in a broader system.

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Fox » 09 Aug 2011, 12:45

Hi nico, going to throw my tuppence worth in, because I've gone off and on astrology over the years as well.

It does bother me a bit, I must admit, but carry on paying attention to astrology because it seems to "work", when done properly and in enough detail.

It seems like a lot of the explanation of how it works is justification after the fact ...

I think we can postulate with a high level of confidence that the beginnings of astrology were based on the idea that the stars DID have some sort of relation - either influential or descriptive/predictive - with life on earth (not just humans, but with the agricultural cycle as well). To dismiss that because astronomical forces are negligible kind of misses the point, in my opinion, because the early practitioners of astrology wouldn't know from gravitational, weak, strong, electromagnetic forces ... huh? The stars were seen as heavenly bodies, perhaps angelic even, that had a spiritual connection of some sort. Maybe they still do, who knows, but that's not the kind of thing we could ever measure with an instrument.

So I think it's a little bit disingenuous to say that none of that really matters, it's all symbolic, it's the houses/signs, not the constellations stupid ... because originally it was the constellations.

But I suppose it could be similar to the way high magic evolved from "low" or "cunning" magic. The original soothsayers would have made some sort of correlation between their own astronomical observations and events or personalities, and then the astrologers got hold of the concept and added the bells and whistles - rising signs, conjunctions, houses, all that stuff that makes modern astrology so intricate and satisfying to the mystical geek in us.

I don't guess that answers any of your questions, but just some thoughts this thread has sparked off.
yr pal, Fox

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Lily » 09 Aug 2011, 16:53

It does bother me a bit, I must admit, but carry on paying attention to astrology because it seems to "work", when done properly and in enough detail.
the key word being "seems".
It seems like a lot of the explanation of how it works is justification after the fact ...
exactly. also known as confirmation bias... you only count the times it works.
But I suppose it could be similar to the way high magic evolved from "low" or "cunning" magic.
Precisely. it is a magical system with no base in fact, and the approximate success rate of magic.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Fox » 09 Aug 2011, 18:07

Precisely. it is a magical system with no base in fact, and the approximate success rate of magic.
Agreed. But having said that, I think there's scope for a new "astronomically correct" astrology to emerge, given enough magical intention it should have roughly the same success rate!

Can you take out a patent on a magical system of divination and self-knowledge? If so I put my claim on it (but I suppose someone must have got to that idea first). Anyway, I'm tired of being a Taurus, I fancy being some other sign for awhile!
yr pal, Fox

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Lily » 09 Aug 2011, 18:12

make up your own :-) connect the dots...
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Fox » 09 Aug 2011, 18:18

Ah, but it would be more lucrative to make all the current ephemera obsolete, and me have the sole ownership of the "correct system" - bwha ha ha ha!
yr pal, Fox

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Lily » 10 Aug 2011, 08:49

Can you take out a patent on a magical system of divination and self-knowledge?
Ah, but it would be more lucrative to make all the current ephemera obsolete, and me have the sole ownership of the "correct system"
you can trademark it. as done with "the Secret"
http://www.seomoz.org/blog/the-secret-s ... ciary-duty
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

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Re: Astrology and Astronomy

Postby Sirona.Bardin » 18 Sep 2011, 17:58

Dear friends,
as I am just starting with astrology and having a basic scientific knowledge on astronomy, I feel confused about the differences, like Nico.
Furthermore, I am confused about our different use of both systems in Druidry:
We look at the real sky or astronomical calculations to find the right times for full moon meditations and the eight festivals of the year. But we do not use astronomy for the classical astrological calculations in divination.
I would like to understand the basic concept of astrology before using it. Which force is it that has effects on us? Is it a radiation or carmic influence? Is it maybe an influence coming from elemental spirits?
To my understanding gravity would not be the force that influences the possibilities in our lives or selves. Gravity only moves objects into a certain direction in space.
I would be grateful for any explanations and ideas from your side.
Bright blessings
Sirona

By the way, my physics textbook gives the calculation for gravity as:
F(the force) = Gamma x (mass of object 1)x(mass of object 2) divided by the square of their distance in metres.
(Masses in kilograms)
Gamma = 6,67 x 10 to the power of minus eleven m³/kg x s²
You might like to look up also Cavendish's way of measuring gravity.
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