ETHICS & VALUES IN DRUIDISM

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Merlyn
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Postby Merlyn » 28 Jul 2005, 02:25

Like a parent's prayer
the words whisper in the wind
The sun's rays warm the skin
Grass dances in the breeze
Leaves shuffle in a cascade of color
A child's eyes full with the wide open sky
and in each breath the smell speaks of life
In delight the wonder of a spirit's flight
Careful hand and insight of the ages
Joy in laughter is reward carried in the air
Echo in the night
Thought passes and the moon shines bright
Infancy sees what age ignores
Shadow falls across our hand
We know this reward is worth our stand

rambles of an old man.
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.

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athelia143
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Re: ETHICS & VALUES IN DRUIDISM

Postby athelia143 » 03 Aug 2005, 21:30

Please see the revised article on the OBOD web site:

Ethics & Values in Druidism

What do you think?

:awen:
Hi Kernos,

It looks wonderful...however, my last name "Nihtscada" was spelled wrong in a few instances.

I was very honoured to have been quoted!

Ethics and such are things that are mentioned a lot, but it is good to see more people writing about it.

I agree with Emrys' comment that Druid ethics should be discussed more often.

There are plenty of folks out there who are more than willing to take the fact that not a lot is agreed upon with regards to ethics in Druidry and exploit it.

Blessings,

Athelia /|\

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athelia143
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Postby athelia143 » 03 Aug 2005, 22:11

Oops...I screwed up the name. So many posts...my mind goes blank when trying to agree with someone...

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Tinne
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Postby Tinne » 08 Aug 2005, 02:20

greetings,
Exploit what?
Druidry is a force you have to play by it's rules to achieve anything druidic.
From the hollow hills
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athelia143
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Postby athelia143 » 08 Aug 2005, 05:05

greetings,
Exploit what?
Druidry is a force you have to play by it's rules to achieve anything druidic.
From the hollow hills
tinne
"Exploit what?" you ask...

Hmmm...let's see. How about the "Druid" in Edmonton in the late 90's who claimed that his Marijuana grow op and subsequent trafficking was "part of his religion" and he should have the right to do as he wanted?

Then there's the "Druid" in Ontario who lured teenaged girls into his massage parlour and sexually assaulted them (Also in the late 90's). His lure? He told them he was a Druid and could heal or teach them.

How about the Irish Druid who came over to Canada in 2000, claimed to be a teacher, ripped a lot of people off (money wise, etc.) and then turned around claiming that these folks weren't hospitable enough when they called him on the money he stole from them? Apparently, he did some of this in England and the USA as well. (Read more here: http://www.druidorder.demon.co.uk/donncuan.html) I met this man several times when he came to Alberta and can attest to many of the accusations against him.

Here is an article by Brendan Cathbad Myers about the Charlatan Prairie Druid http://www.wildideas.net/cathbad/pagan/prarie.html if you want to read yet another example of a more benign form of explaoitation in the form of teaching Druidry with poor historical background...

Do we even need to mention Monroe?

How about those so-called "Druids" who go around hurting people and such because "They're Druids...they don't have a set of rules to govern them"?

How about the ones who think it's ok to defile teenaged girls and tell them they need to have sex with them to get ahead in the Pagan world? (I've met enough of these perverts in our Pagan community) They may not be well-liked, but they use their Paganism as an excuse because there is no ethical standard other than the Wiccan Rede, which is very open to interpretation.

I see this all the time where I live, which is why I am very focused on ethics.

It's fine to say Druidry is a force and you have to "play by its rules", but when the "rules" are not made clear, how is anyone expected to know what they are (those who are not Druids)? Sure, one could say "Well, they're not real Druids"...but the public and the press don't know that, do they?

Druidry and Paganism in general is seen by some folks as a free-wheelin', do whatcha like religion because the morality and ethics don't seem to be spelled out very clearly to anyone. The fact that we do not focus more on ethical behaviour and such only solidifies that misconception by the public.

Our lack of a publicly known ethical foundation outside of our little circles is a very easy target for exploitation if you ask me...
How can anyone take us seriously?

I don't know how things are in the UK, but I've seen enough of this sort of underhanded behaviour in Canada and the USA in the last 14 years that I know it can be easily exploited. This stuff does happen. Perhaps not often, but it does happen.

Just my thoughts on what I have seen and read over the years. Take it as you will.

Blessings,

Athelia /|\

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athelia143
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Postby athelia143 » 08 Aug 2005, 05:08

Dang the donncouan link does not work from here. Here is the google listing:

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Don ... arch&meta=

Athelia

My apologies for the blunt nature of my previous post. It was not intended to offfend, just open the door to a side of Druidry and Paganism that some folks may not have heard of...or don't want to.

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Postby Alferian » 08 Aug 2005, 20:23

Dear Athelia,

Thanks for that list of miscreants. I was only vaguely aware of some of that. I quite agree that that sort of sensationally bad behavior doesn't do any good to those of us who consider respecting the law as part of our Druid ethics. However, it is true that "druid" is such a broad term that it can easily be used by people with such free-wheeling notions of morals . Paganism does, after all, tend to appeal to anti-Establishment sorts, and it is part of the history of the counterculture that discarding sexual restraint is often seen as a possitive thing. Sometimes it may be, but I do think that when someone goes to the point of exploiting others for sexual jollies and then rationalizes it on the grounds of "liberating" the repressed sexuality of the poor victims -- well, I cannot call that anything but reprehensible. Still, that sort of deviation and criminal behavior does happen even in religions that have rigid moral codes, as we well know.

I agree with you that having open discussion is a good thing, rather than leaving people with the impression that all followers of Druidry believe in a free-wheeling, no-rules approach.

Tinne, I'm not sure what you were driving at exactly.

Alferian

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Ethics in Druidry

Postby athelia143 » 08 Aug 2005, 21:07

Dear Athelia,

Thanks for that list of miscreants. I was only vaguely aware of some of that. I quite agree that that sort of sensationally bad behavior doesn't do any good to those of us who consider respecting the law as part of our Druid ethics. However, it is true that "druid" is such a broad term that it can easily be used by people with such free-wheeling notions of morals .

Paganism does, after all, tend to appeal to anti-Establishment sorts, and it is part of the history of the counterculture that discarding sexual restraint is often seen as a possitive thing. Sometimes it may be, but I do think that when someone goes to the point of exploiting others for sexual jollies and then rationalizes it on the grounds of "liberating" the repressed sexuality of the poor victims -- well, I cannot call that anything but reprehensible. Still, that sort of deviation and criminal behavior does happen even in religions that have rigid moral codes, as we well know.

I agree with you that having open discussion is a good thing, rather than leaving people with the impression that all followers of Druidry believe in a free-wheeling, no-rules approach.

Alferian
Hi Alferian,

I know you are one of the moderators and I am glad you did not take offence to my words. (I know I can come across like a mad dog some days :o )It was never my intent to cause problems, but I find myself seeing more and more of a need for this type of discussion on ethics and such. It is wonderful to see this type of discussion happening!

As for sexuality...I don't care what people do as consenting adults. It's none of my business. That is their free choice and I respect it. It's just when a minor or someone who is not consenting is involved, then it becomes a problem. It is a crime in the eyes of the law.

There is a such a fine line with sexuality. Where is it drawn? And yes...it happens everywhere. However, most of the 'other' religions usually have some sort of standards in place and forms of disciplinary action...we do not. (Whether they choose to adhere to those standards and actions is another story altogether!)

The solution may not be a rigid moral code (nor did I ever want it to be...we've seen enough problems with that too), but discussion and perhaps a consensus on some sort of ethical perspective with regards to Druidry is a great place to start dispelling misconceptions and exploitation.

Blessings,
Athelia /|\

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Postby wolf lover » 11 Aug 2005, 05:40

One of the things about Druidry that attrached me in the first place was the fact that there was no dogma to follow in the first place, so many religions out there have a set of rules that if you don't specifically follow them then you are doing something the wrong way and subject to punishment. I personally feel that ethics are apart of being a Druid and that it is nesseccary especially since I saw the examples of the people who have abused being a Druid and also being a Pagan as someone listed earlier in another post. But the danger that I can see happening is the fact that there can be to much structure and that to me would be a bad thing for Druidry. Personally I see a balance in the world between both Nature and Science, Nature because I feel such a relationship with the world around me both in the animals and spirits of the forrest that we all love and care very deeply about. Science on the other hand(my father was a Biology Proffessor) isn't always the answer for everything in our lives. I think we all can agree that there are many things around us that we cant expalin with our five sesnse's. But then again there are so many examples of frauds hoaxes and so on that this can give both Paganisim and Druidry as a whole a bad reputation. Forgive me for my rmbling and if I skipped from one point to another but it is early in the morning and I have to admit that this to[pic has struck a cord within me and I find it enjoyable to find out how other people feel.

Peace :)

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Postby Tinne » 15 Aug 2005, 02:17

greetings
By play by the rules, i meant that druidry is a path, if you go off the path you are not doing druidry youre doing something else.
From the hollow hills
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Postby Tinne » 15 Aug 2005, 02:45

greetings again,
Anyone drawn to the obod site or the message board will see ethical issues poping up all over the place that's why i see no need to post any diffinitives.
I'm preety sure statisticly more people have been done over by organized religion than the pagan world. you can usally tell a person by what they wear around their neck.
love,light and peace
tinne
Life is what you make of it.

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Postby Wolfwalker » 15 Aug 2005, 03:43

One of the freeing things I have found of my druid experience, is that it allows for divergence, that in my case takes my red road journey into account, so I can follow both. I find this very interesting, since often there is very little divergence from traditonal native practise, teaching, lore and law/ justice.
At other times, it is obvious the differences are cultural ones, borne of two different experiences separated by an ocean. Ethics are an internal response to what one believes, as I believe I said before. If it has become rigid and dogmatitically inflexible, that is a manifestation of a faith path in an individual or group, not usually an inherent flaw in the faith walk itself.
I have met some very compassionate, druidilike christians, Budhists, Jews and others, ones who would put some of us in druidry to shame for their selflessness and love of the natural world and it's magical life-forces. That said, in any faith walk it's also not that difficult to find someone who's so narrow-minded they could look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time!
bb, Peter
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Postby DaRC » 16 Aug 2005, 13:55

We have a rule on the bridleways/trails, it probably applies to most anything with people involved such as faiths...

10% of other trail users are idiots, the other 90% are idiots 10% of the time.
Although we substitute a a more colloquial version of the word idiot.
We also include ourselves in the 90%.

Cheers, Dave.
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most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
and to live a life without shame. (Havamal 68)
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Postby saraquel » 19 Aug 2005, 16:16

Isn't the point of having ethics not to finalise what those are, but to be constantly discussing them and aware that things change? That way, when we are faced with a situation and are considering what to do, we are able to bring into play our previous thoughts and make the right decision as best we can.

There is no absolute yardstick for ethics - we can only do our best.

I thought that the page on ethics on the OBOD website was very clear, and I figured that it was more for people investigating what druidry was than for people who are druids (if you get the distinction). Druidry is still very unfamiliar to a lot of people, and having some indication of ethical thought is necessary for those, even if it is understood than these ethics cannot and should not be tied up in a legalise fashion.

Just my thoughts on the matter!

:)

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Postby Wolfwalker » 19 Aug 2005, 22:03

good point: good post...
bb, Peter
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Postby EarthWard » 20 Aug 2005, 05:54

Good post,saraque, and it ties in with what tinne said about ethical issues popping up here all the time.
The point of ethics is not to finalise them, but to be discussing them and aware that things change. To follow something without contest takes away from that critical process of discussing.
Well said!
:peace:
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Postby Moira Rhydd » 31 May 2006, 00:41

Hello all--

S  orry if I distract you from the current thread.  Being new here, I thought this discussion on ethics might be the right place to ask about the first of the 11 principles:  "Every action has a consequence that must be observed and you must be prepared to compensate for your actions if required."  The first part of it ("Every action has a consequence") sounds like the Wiccan Rede or like a reference to karmic causality.  But what about the last part of it ("be prepared to compensate for your actions if required").  My questions:  (1) Compensate how?  How is "compensation" to be interpreted here?  (2) Does "if required" mean that it may *not* be required sometimes?  When would that be?  

I wish this were merely academic for me, but it isn't, so any help with this would be immensely appreciated.

Blessings--    

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Moira Rhydd

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Postby Donata » 31 May 2006, 04:32

Hi,

What are the 11 principles?

Re compensation - wouldn't that depend on what you did and if it can be undone at all? I'm not sure there could be a clear cut answers to cover all or even most situations. I think that would need to be determined separately for each act that needed compensation.

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Donata
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Postby Moira Rhydd » 31 May 2006, 11:47

Hi Donata--

I found the 11 principles on this site, under "Ethics & Values of Druidism"; they're based on the old Brehon laws.  I know that Emma Restall Orr also has them (or very similar ones) under her druidry network site.

Having studied law myself, I guess I expect each word to carry meaning, but perhaps you're right that it must be evaluated more loosely, on a case-by-case basis. I would love to have some examples of "compensation" though.  It seems that this particular "principle" is very carefully articulated and, as such. really differs from the Wiccan Rede.

Blessings--
Moira Rhydd

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Postby Donata » 31 May 2006, 13:07

The OBOD site? guess I need to look at it - haven't in a long time!

Well, an obvious one - if you steal, replace it or its value.

If you slander someone, admit it and do your best to counter it, and ask forgiveness of the one you slandered. If you misjudged someone - same.

I'd think most situations aren't black and white so not easy to determine compensation ahead of time.

What did you have in mind?

Donata
In some mysterious and wonderful way you are part of everything. And in that same mysterious and wonderful way, everything is a part of you. ---Nippawanock, ARAPAHOE

If I destroy you, I destroy myself. If I honor you, I honor myself. --- Hunbatz Men, MAYAN ELDER

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