The Christian-Druid Path

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Twyrch
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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Twyrch » 05 Nov 2011, 02:22

Actually, according to the Church of Satan, Satan is a Fire Elemental, while Lucifer is a Light Elemental. People commonly confuse these two demons.
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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 05 Nov 2011, 03:07

Actually, according to the Church of Satan, Satan is a Fire Elemental, while Lucifer is a Light Elemental. People commonly confuse these two demons.
Yeah, but the so called Church of Satan is Anton le Vey Being very Tongue in cheek. It is basically hedonism and a rip off of Crowley. Lucifer is the light bringer ie Venus which heralds the sunrise. The Christians took a lot of the key pagan deities and made them devils e.g. Pan. Though some others were assimilated as saints eg Brigit.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Twyrch » 05 Nov 2011, 14:35

This sounds like a good topic to make into a thread in the Christian-Druid forum. The idea of Satan/Lucifer was conceived of long before the New Testament (i.e. Christianity) The Old Testament and many of the books of the Apocrypha and Pseudo-Apocrypha mention Lucifer and Satan.

The Sacred-Texts.org site covers many books, many of which are not even remotely Christian in nature. There are 676 individual mentions of "Lucifer" and 7,070 mentions of "Satan".

I would love to discuss this more with you in the Christian-Druid forum.
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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 05 Nov 2011, 14:48

This sounds like a good topic to make into a thread in the Christian-Druid forum. The idea of Satan/Lucifer was conceived of long before the New Testament (i.e. Christianity) The Old Testament and many of the books of the Apocrypha and Pseudo-Apocrypha mention Lucifer and Satan.

The Sacred-Texts.org site covers many books, many of which are not even remotely Christian in nature. There are 676 individual mentions of "Lucifer" and 7,070 mentions of "Satan".


: ) cool- I thought this was the Christian Druid forum lol will have another look around...cheers! :)
I would love to discuss this more with you in the Christian-Druid forum.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Twyrch » 05 Nov 2011, 19:20

This thread started out like that, but there were so many topics, a sub-forum was created.

http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewforum.php?f=127
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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 06 Nov 2011, 00:00

This thread started out like that, but there were so many topics, a sub-forum was created.

http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewforum.php?f=127
It won't let me in or even let me read posts? Thanks.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Twyrch » 06 Nov 2011, 03:17

This thread started out like that, but there were so many topics, a sub-forum was created.

http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewforum.php?f=127
It won't let me in or even let me read posts? Thanks.
You need to request access with one of the Moderators of that group.
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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 06 Nov 2011, 12:37

This thread started out like that, but there were so many topics, a sub-forum was created.

http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewforum.php?f=127
It won't let me in or even let me read posts? Thanks.
You need to request access with one of the Moderators of that group.
Sorted, thanks!

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Scholar » 15 Nov 2011, 23:20

This is actually a very interesting topic for me because I was involved, for 8 years, in Celtic Paganism (Celtic Reconstructionist) and then got involved in a traditional Wiccan coven. A month before I was initiated into the coven, after almost a year of learning from my high priestess, I converted to Islam and have been a Muslim ever since (definitely wasn't a year wasted, though. I learned a lot of amazing things.)

That being said, I am very familiar with both ends of the spectrum (pagan and Abrahamic) and it creates a very interesting little combination (sometimes battle) in my own spirituality. Islamically, it is more than dangerous to combine pagan beliefs with Islamic beliefs since God is very clear about not combining Him with the religious practices of other faiths, even though, culturally, it is done all the time. However, I will admit that every single year around Samhain, my inner hypersensitive self gets very emotional and I truly believe that it is because, for 8 years, I opened myself up to the energies in nature and the spirits around me and that door, once opened, is not easily closed. When you once taught yourself to feel the thinness of the veil, you feel it no matter what religion you follow because your body reacts to it.

It is interesting to see a Christians perspective on combining Christianity and Druidry. While I don't know that I necessarily believe that it can be combined, I do enjoy seeing alternative perspectives and learning from them. I am not a Christian so I really don't have the right to say whether it can be combined or not. I just can relate to this thread being Abrahamic and having a pagan past that sometimes pokes its head in the door and says "hello, I'm still here" every year at Samhain. lol.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Muddy Fox » 15 Nov 2011, 23:27

Why did you convert to Islam may I ask? Peer pressure? Family? Love? Divine guidance? I am intrigued.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 00:48

Very interesting. Much of the Sufi tradition of Islam carried on pagan customs in terms of Gnosticism and yogic practices. Ritual in and of itself is a carry on from pagan custom, including prayer and other forms of worship.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op ... ert-islam/

Here is an article (not that I particularly condone the website) which outlines aspects of pagan tradition that were carried on, or morphed into Islam. Much like the Christian tradition in Ireland of pilgrimage up Croc Patrick-carrying on a pagan custom that had been done for generations before hand.

At the end of the day spirituality is a very personal thing and certainly very subjective. All the religions of the world are a fusion of elements of things that were there before. In terms of Abrahamic faith etc the whole thing was based on an original pantheism eg the Elohim of genesis is a feminine plural. The world of genesis was original created by the god/dessess. Moses may well have been Akanaton, or certainly based his teaching on that pagan tradition of monotheistic sun worship.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 00:55

"Tom Cheetham, an authority on Islamic mysticism, identifies Khidr of esoteric Sufism with the Green Man. In his book about the work of Henry Corbin and others concerning the 12th-century Muslim saint Ibn Arabi, he develops the idea of the Green Man/Khidr as the principle mediating between the imaginary realm and the physical world.[21]


Osiris, lord of the dead. His green skin symbolizes re-birth.
On a similar theme, author on spirituality and architecture William Anderson writes:[22]
There are legends of him (Khidr) in which, like Osiris, he is dismembered and reborn; and prophecies connecting him, like the Green Man, with the end of time. His name means the Green One or Verdant One, he is the voice of inspiration to the aspirant and committed artist. He can come as a white light or the gleam on a blade of grass, but more often as an inner mood. The sign of his presence is the ability to work or experience with tireless enthusiasm beyond one's normal capacities. In this there may be a link across cultures, …one reason for the enthusiasm of the medieval sculptors for the Green Man may be that he was the source of every inspiration." from Wikipedia article on the Green Man.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 01:05

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn

You might also reflect in the Jinn as a carry on from pagan tradition, that may be directly related to the myriad forces of nature represented in pagan culture all over the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

A brief into to the basis of Islamic culture in terms of traditional Arab paganism.

Enjoy!

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 01:21

One of the greatest things about Islamic culture is also it golden age in Moorish Spain, where it displayed a tolerance of other religions that is a lesson needing remembered in this age where fundamentalism rages like an intolerant, cornered rat. These sages of Islam also respected greatly the sciences and the arts in a highly intellectual environment. In that period alchemy and astrology were high on the curriculum-as a standard part of science and medicine of the time and for hundreds of years before and after. I am also sure that Ireland shared in the wealth of this period and many Arabic treatise on alchemy and astrology were translated into Gaelic during the medieval period.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Mountainheart » 16 Nov 2011, 08:31

[quote="JohnPaulPatton"]"Tom Cheetham, an authority on Islamic mysticism, identifies Khidr of esoteric Sufism with the Green Man. In his book about the work of Henry Corbin and others concerning the 12th-century Muslim saint Ibn Arabi, he develops the idea of the Green Man/Khidr as the principle mediating between the imaginary realm and the physical world.[21]

Khidr is interesting, although the linking of him with the story of Moses in Sura 18 is an interpretation: and the Qur'an itself doesn't mention Khidr by name. To claim that Khidr is 'the principle mediating between the imaginary realm and the physical world' might be a jump too far since Sura 18 describes him as 'One of Our messengers': implying that there are/were multiple messengers.

Thx
David

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 18:19

"Tom Cheetham, an authority on Islamic mysticism, identifies Khidr of esoteric Sufism with the Green Man. In his book about the work of Henry Corbin and others concerning the 12th-century Muslim saint Ibn Arabi, he develops the idea of the Green Man/Khidr as the principle mediating between the imaginary realm and the physical world.[21]

Khidr is interesting, although the linking of him with the story of Moses in Sura 18 is an interpretation: and the Qur'an itself doesn't mention Khidr by name. To claim that Khidr is 'the principle mediating between the imaginary realm and the physical world' might be a jump too far since Sura 18 describes him as 'One of Our messengers': implying that there are/were multiple messengers.

Thx
David
Fair point.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Scholar » 16 Nov 2011, 20:44

While the link about converting Islam to Paganism was interesting, I took it with a grain of salt because of a lot of the vocabulary that was used by the author. I can compare it to a pagan who reads Silver Ravenwolf (no offense to anyone who likes her) or Edain McCoy and comes across lines like “The ancient Celts used pumpkins and that is why we use pumpkins on Halloween” when we all know that pumpkins are a new world crop and were not available to ancient Celts. The same can be said for that article. There were certain things in it were misconceptions about Islam and then used to try to make a point by people who obviously are not Muslim. The main one was when they were discussing 9/11 and said that the killers killed because it was predestined by God and, therefore, God willed it to happen before the people even decided that they would do it. This is a very misunderstood concept and is, unfortunately, used a lot to attack Islam and call it a violent religion. Islam is a religion of free will. There are things that are predestined for us but that doesn’t mean that we don’t make any of our own choices. There is a famous hadith that says “God helps those who help themselves” which suggests that someone needs to actually go out and do things in order to see results. I stopped reading after a little bit because I found some of these statements to be rather annoying and borderline offensive.

As for their being pagan overlaps within Islam, I don’t doubt this for a minute. The way I see it, God did not all of a sudden start existing when Abraham was born. God has been existing forever and He created every single person and sent them signs and things that hinted at who He was. If prophets have been sent to every group of people ("For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger..." (Qur’an 16:36)), it is no wonder that Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, or Celtic Paganism would have overlaps with Islam. The way I see it, from a Muslims eyes, it’s as though God was giving them snapshots of what to do and they were taking them and doing with them what they thought was right. However, one messenger to each group was not enough which was why more and more had to be sent out. God would send a messenger who would give a message, the message would be ignored or disobeyed/warped and so God would later have to send another one to set the record straight. That’s how we view the two Abrahamic religions prior to Islam. The prophets in the Hebrew Bible are accepted in Islam as legitimate prophets sent from God. The problem was that their message was distorted so God had to send Jesus which is where Christianity came into the picture. The message was distorted when people started viewing him as God Himself (remember, this is a Muslims perspective) and started worshipping him. Finally, He sent the last prophet, Muhammad and vowed that the text that He gave Muhammad (the Qur’an) would not be distorted. Every Qur’an that is translated into a foreign language is NOT considered a legitimate Qur’an because of the translation differences from language to language.

That being said, there is no doubt that there are parallels between other religions and Islam. God Himself said in the Qur’an that He would be sending other prophets all over the world to every group of people. This does not mean, from a Muslims perspective, however, that every religion is therefore 100% right. This doesn’t even mean that every Muslim is 100% right. This means that human beings are given a message and we have a very very long track record of distorting Gods message and not doing things the way He really asks them to be done. The SAME can be said for Muslims. There are tons and tons of Muslims who do things that the Qur’an specifically says not to do, or they interpret the Qur’an in ways that other Muslims don’t agree with.

As for ritual and prayer being "from paganism", I don’t know that this is necessarily the case. I think it is simply a matter of the fact that paganism is so much older than any Abrahamic religion and it was human beings trying to interact with the divine in a very natural way. How else does one communicate with the divine if not through prayer? Ritual is also a very human concept since we are creatures of habit. I don’t believe that Muslims or anyone else took this from paganism; I believe this is simply our human nature and has been done forever. Pagans just happened to have done it first.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 21:39

All fair points. Yeah, sorry about that web link-had some interesting points but was obviously a bit twisted and biased in an unhealthy way.

As I recall the Koran was allegedly written from 'memory' about 70 years after allegedly being dictated by Gabrial?

it's an interesting subject as Islam is something I have only came across lightly. I recall being excited when I first got the Koran about 20 years ago, then disappointed when I realised it was near identical to the Bible! lol

I wonder if 'God' as such exists if it isn't time he/she or it sent another world teacher...as eh, if your thesis is right-I think the humans have lost the plot again?

Perhaps it was Darwin to take us to the next step? Or Dawkins? :)

Muddy Fox

Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby Muddy Fox » 16 Nov 2011, 21:41

As interesting as this topic is I fail to see why it has been posted under The Christian-Druid Path thread. In view of the contents I am also very dubious as to why someone professing to be a convert to Islam would even be posting on a message board such as this.
Perhaps there is a wily old Pagan or Wiccan trying to lump all the Abrahamic faiths together in a very clever attempt to sabotage a Christian-Druid's prescence in an apparently Pagan dominated community.
I can see no other reason and frankly it is beginning to bore me, a bit like the tiresome writing thread which became quite embarrassing for those involved I feel.

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Re: The Christian-Druid Path

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 16 Nov 2011, 22:00

Correction-wasn't 70 years after-13 or so years after his death it seems it was put together from written and oral sources.


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