How "Common" are we?

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wolf560
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How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 21 Jan 2011, 18:40

Having been overseas for most of my life I have gotten to see how the Middle Easterners and the Pacific Islanders contrast with the Western Europeans. I have long said "there is nothing Common about Common Courtesy".

This portion of the board has long had me thinking that there is nothing Common about Paganry as well. I have found that the diversity offered in modern Paganry is probably the thing that makes it a viable and vibrant choice for spirituality. I prefer to look upon our quest as similar in end result only; the attainment of a spiritual connection with that which inspires us to search for answers in our life.

My question is simple;
Do we have to be "common" or can our true strength be our great diversity?
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by treegod » 21 Jan 2011, 19:43

We're human. That's one commonality. We live on the same planet. That's another. Even just sharing the same language can be a consensus of a kind. Amazing to think there are millions of people I can communicate with even if I don't know them.

For me any diversity is a creative expression of this commonality. Being human and living on the same planet is, for me, the basic foundation of our diversity. Like the earth is the basic foundation for biodiversity.

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 21 Jan 2011, 21:10

treegod wrote:We're human. That's one commonality. We live on the same planet. That's another. Even just sharing the same language can be a consensus of a kind.
Unfortunately these three things have led to some amazing assumptions in my travels.

I was in Pakistan assisting in the Disaster Relief in 2005.
I had regular meetings with my workers and managers to keep myself on top of the situation (or so I thought). Here is what happened, despite the fact that we were all human beings, living on the same planet and talking the same language....

For three weeks my workers and managers said "Yes Yes Yes" every time I asked them if they had delivered the medical supplies into the mountains. This particular day I was looking out my 2nd floor window at the convoy trucks which had not left yet.... I asked them for their answers despite the fact I knew they had not left with the supplies yet.

All of them replied with "Yes Yes Yes"

I was about to fire them all when I decided to ask why they had all lied to me....
They all responded

In our culture we are not supposed to use the word "No" to a superior or boss.
We use "Yes Yes Yes" instead......


Rather than tell me "No" so I could then negotiate an answer to the reason they could not move they simply said "Yes Yes Yes" and went home happy and silent.

They KNEW that people were dying without these supplies and that the supplies themselves were expiring in the massive heat. but they did not care because their culture felt it was more important for them to not tell me "No".

This is what I mean by the "Not Common", and I can tell you Hundreds of stories in dozens of countries where similar mishaps happened because everyone THOUGHT they were "Common" to the person sitting next to them.... and they were not of course.
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 21 Jan 2011, 23:07

I guess for me I find it more of an individual thing...
I'd rather say that I am different rather than say I am the same...

...and this is the single greatest thing I like about Paganry

it's great diversity
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by treegod » 21 Jan 2011, 23:25

There are BIG problems with my assumptions. But they are assumptions. And they're mine. That's the other thing, I should have made clear that this was my personal view, not some undeniable truth shared by all.

"We are all human." - Some believe they are not human. Some believe they are a special type of human. Many have wildly differing views about what it is to be a human being.

I can only talk about what it is to be human to me. And as soon as I start describing them there will be lots of "Yes", "No" and "Yes but...". For me it is not a vision of commonality that I actively seek to share with others, because many will not understand, but a vision that guides my own personal life in the "bigger context". And occasionally I am fortunate enough to meet people that can share the same sort of views (in fact I live and work with a small group) and this alignment and resonance can create a synergy bigger than its component parts.

"We all live on the same planet." - How? Some people live like they are all alone, some people live like they don't even live here and others live like they don't even live with themselves!

I'd like to think out of all my assumptions it would seem this is the most realistic one. And yet people still make mistakes. But out of all the assumptions this is the one that's the most inescapable. It doesn't matter whether people agree about living on the same planet or not, in the end the planet will make that decision for them (us!) even if they (we!) don't. We can only take up so much space, we can only use up so many resources, we can only ignore the person sitting right in front of us for so long (though we can certainly tried hard).

I just don't understand it, I trip and fall down and find this great big rock in the way. How can anyone ignore it? (and yet they do)

"Even just sharing the same language can be a consensus of a kind."

Already this reeks of loop-holes: "can be a consensus" not "is a consensus". And it isn't a clean clear consensus it's a "consensus of some kind". I'd hate to ask myself what I mean by "some kind" because I might not give myself a proper answer!!!

One basic fact is I speak English, a language spoken by millions (billions?) of people across the world. And even if people don't speak it, a lot of people know an English word or two. So there are many people that I can potentially communicate with, even if I don't know them. This I find amazing. But even these basic facts are muddied, as you have described wolf560, by problems of communication. I come from a nation that is divided into three and a bit countries, and the country I come from itself is apparently divided by a north/south divide, and within this the variation of communication is very divided, by accent, by class and God knows what other things (I could end up with a list too long to put here). There was a quote I saw once that said "England and America are two countries divided by a common language." Ok, when I see here we have mainly English speakers, and we can all speak to each other, even if we misunderstand each other we can still speak to each other fluently (and even that can vary).

But what is illogical is that despite "living on the same planet" with a plethora of languages many people are mono-lingual. I'm an Englishman, living in Spain with my French-speaking Swiss girlfriend, a mono-lingual worldview is not something I can sustain.

I've given up trying to find a commonality as though it were a self-evident truth that pre-exists human conception. I'd much prefer consensus, and that is the principle I live and work with. In trying to find commonality we make assumptions. In trying to create a consensus we have to put aside our assumptions and come up with something completely different.

My question is not what is our commonality but what is our consensus, spoken and unspoken, here on this message board?

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 00:37

treegod wrote:My question is not what is our commonality but what is our consensus, spoken and unspoken, here on this message board?
I'd like to think we all think alike
....but I think that we don't always....


...and I really don't think it is such a bad thing to think differently....
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by DJ Droood » 22 Jan 2011, 01:04

treegod wrote:My question is not what is our commonality but what is our consensus, spoken and unspoken, here on this message board?
Consensus or contract? Consensus implies group-think and perhaps stagnation to me....it is the end of a process, and I think that would be the death of a messageboard, or any other social media. A contract is an agreement to interact in a certain way...there is the board agreement, of course, and the forum rules, but then there is the shared interest in druidry, and I think we all have made a social contact to come here and discuss druidry and not threaten or harass one another (even if some people think that disagreeing with them is threatening and harassing).

The simple answer is druidry is the commonality, and the differing views on what druidry is gives the board it's dynamic.
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 06:28

DJ Droood wrote:
treegod wrote:My question is not what is our commonality but what is our consensus, spoken and unspoken, here on this message board?
Consensus implies group-think and perhaps stagnation to me....it is the end of a process, and I think that would be the death of a messageboard, or any other social media.

The simple answer is druidry is the commonality, and the differing views on what druidry is gives the board it's dynamic.
Wow DJ... you hit the nail solidly on the head...!!! :trisk:
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by treegod » 22 Jan 2011, 12:43

DJ Droood wrote:
treegod wrote:My question is not what is our commonality but what is our consensus, spoken and unspoken, here on this message board?
Consensus or contract? Consensus implies group-think and perhaps stagnation to me....it is the end of a process, and I think that would be the death of a messageboard, or any other social media. A contract is an agreement to interact in a certain way...there is the board agreement, of course, and the forum rules, but then there is the shared interest in druidry, and I think we all have made a social contact to come here and discuss druidry and not threaten or harass one another (even if some people think that disagreeing with them is threatening and harassing).

The simple answer is druidry is the commonality, and the differing views on what druidry is gives the board it's dynamic.
My understanding of consensus is your understanding of contract.

Well, and then there is spoken and unspoken consensus as I mentioned above. Unspoken consensus is group-think; it relies on assumptions, taboos, subtle peer pressure and unexamined motives. In fact it's not a consensus because no one consciously consents to it, they just unconsciously and unthinkingly accept the way things are.

And I think you've described the consensus/contract of this board quite well DJ. Simply it's a place of discussion about Druidry. And for a message board that's enough. My expectations for this message board and it's activity are no lower and no higher than that.

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by treegod » 22 Jan 2011, 12:47

For diveristy to flourish it just needs to be left alone. The ecosystem around my house has a good biodiversity not because I have anything to do with it, but because it works ok on its own.

Bartholomew

Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by Bartholomew » 22 Jan 2011, 13:08

I think the internet and message boards are a great tool, a unique way of communicating with a diverse range of people on a diverse range of topics. Which in everyday life you just do not have the time for.
I was a member of another Druid message board for a couple of years and was very impressed with the people and topics we discussed there. I think I was the only Christian on there. I learnt a lot about Pagans and the Druid way of life which inspired me to take up my Bardic studies again. I do like a different perspective, sometimes people just have an angle on life that you have never come across before.
However I think there is a difference between somebody putting up a topic on a board and saying hey, I would like to discuss this, it may be controversial, but let's see what happens. Or picking up on something a person has said in reponse to a query, the query being a personal matter and people just answering it from a personal perspective. A personal viewpoint which was not meant to be a target for group challenge or debate. Just my opinion.

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by Heddwen » 22 Jan 2011, 15:14

I think that the commonality that we share here is the fact that the most of us are OBOD druids. Although there is no dogma, OBOD is clear on their stance. I would assume therefore that as OBODS we agree with this as we have all signed up for the course in order to be a member of OBOD. IMO the threads in the grade members only sections have a different feel about them, they are more intense as most of them relate specifically to the training programme, I feel in some ways that this is more the meatier part of what druidry is all about and what it means for me.That along with my relationship with my personal tutor. It relates directly to our studies.

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 21:39

Heddwen wrote: I would assume therefore that as OBODS we agree with this as we have all signed up for the course in order to be a member of OBOD.
I originally signed up for this exact end-product; to be an "OBOD Druid".

I had attained this level with the Bandarach College of Druidry but would have to do everything all over again for a similar title in the OBOD. For now I have now decided to simply stay in contact with other Druids here on this board. I just don't want to have to repeat everything all over again for the 'right' to call myself a Druid.

For me, this board and people I have met here are my connection to a great number of truly remarkable people, both Pagan and Christian alike who are all "Druids" in my book.

Thank you one and all for starting and/or continuing discussions with me here. :shake:
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by Huathe » 22 Jan 2011, 22:32

wolf560 wrote:
Heddwen wrote: I would assume therefore that as OBODS we agree with this as we have all signed up for the course in order to be a member of OBOD.
I originally signed up for this exact end-product; to be an "OBOD Druid".

I had attained this level with the Bandarach College of Druidry but would have to do everything all over again for a similar title in the OBOD. For now I have now decided to simply stay in contact with other Druids here on this board. I just don't want to have to repeat everything all over again for the 'right' to call myself a Druid.

For me, this board and people I have met here are my connection to a great number of truly remarkable people, both Pagan and Christian alike who are all "Druids" in my book.

Thank you one and all for starting and/or continuing discussions with me here. :shake:

Mark,

I don't think anyone here would argue anything against you being a druid. You are certainly one of the most knowledgeable here.

I may have a little in common with you. I am currently enrolled in the New Order of Druids " Grove of Dana " online college. Technically I am not OBOD but I learn much and enjoy the comraderie here. The OBOD board is much more active than the NOD board is. OBOD is quite a bit larger of a druidry organization. I do enjoy both boards though.
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 22:41

Thanks James..!!! :grin:

Yes, I agree whole-heartedly with you. :shake:

I am a member of the NOD as well as the ADF, but the OBOD discussion forums are so much better and well-maintained.
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by Huathe » 22 Jan 2011, 22:50

Mark,

Cool!

I never knew you were a NODie. Heck, drop a line on their board occaisionally.
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by DJ Droood » 22 Jan 2011, 23:07

Heddwen wrote:I think that the commonality that we share here is the fact that the most of us are OBOD druids.
hmmmm...I don't think that is the case in the open forums...I think there is probably a majority of non-obod members....I'd be surprised if people who identify as "druid" would even be in the majority.

what about one of those old fashioned polls they used to run here?
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by wolf560 » 23 Jan 2011, 05:11

Heddwen wrote:I think that the commonality that we share here is the fact that the most of us are OBOD druids.
DJ Droood wrote:...I think there is probably a majority of non-obod members....I'd be surprised if people who identify as "druid" would even be in the majority.
Check for the Poll DJ (I just created it and it is to your credit).... Great Idea..!!!!
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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by lavouivre » 03 Feb 2011, 18:09

We are uncommonly common but it is uncommonly common that we may disagree

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Re: How "Common" are we?

Post by FoxPhantom » 11 Feb 2011, 03:45

Even though I am not a member of OBOD, I still look into more then one points of view, as well as reading many books to what the person knows. Even though it doesn't fully help myself or why I don't fully fit in, (I understand that I would have to look inwards then out) as far as I know the common thing everyone has is everyone else there is always a group that thinks alike, or talks alike, but within the smaller connections we would still have that same common interest.
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