Will they return?

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FoxPhantom
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Re: Will they return?

Post by FoxPhantom » 07 Jun 2011, 20:00

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:Nightwolf.

I agree. I do not believe the Earth will be destroyed. Only returned to the Edenlike paradise it was meant to be, with a mankind worthy enough for it and willing to take care of it.

That is the main theme of the Holy Bible. Man's fall from grace and man's return to it. Yes, there is a lot of pain and sin in between but the Paradise Earth will be restored. Man alone certainly won't do it. Man worships money too much as a whole to do that!

That is pretty interesting, never thought about it that way.
So would it mean women is what the earth needs to be along side man?
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Huathe
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 08 Jun 2011, 06:27

I can't imagine a world without women. Even Eden had at least one.
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Frog
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Frog » 08 Jun 2011, 15:16

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:I can't imagine a world without women. Even Eden had at least one.
That's true... but then there was the whole thing with the snake and the apple and the rib... :oops: :grin:
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Heddwen
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Heddwen » 08 Jun 2011, 19:36

I thought that may have been to do with Mrs. Adam #1, or perhaps this is what you were thinking of. :grin:
Anyway, to some of us the Earth is feminine :cloud9:

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Myrde
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Myrde » 09 Jun 2011, 18:36

Woah woah woah. I hate to break it to all you guys, but Man only THINKS he came first. Everybody knows that God created Eve, knowing she would take care of things and the planet with a motherly fashion. But she grew bored and lonely (both personally and in the bedroom). So then guys got created.

THATS when everything went down hill. :P

(Im kidding fyi).

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Re: Will they return?

Post by Muddy Fox » 09 Jun 2011, 20:34

And where does Lilith fit into this cosy little story? Or does she fit into this story at all ?

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Myrde
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Myrde » 09 Jun 2011, 21:00

Lilith only fits into this story if you're Jewish and/or have studied the Midrash extensively like myself.

If Lilith IS involved, then we can only assume that God, like every other guy out there, liked the thought of two women.... erm... you get the point. :whistle: I still stand that Eve was first, IF the Abrahimic God is real.

*steps to the side suddenly, a lightning bolt suddenly striking where he was. He glances upwards, amused* Oh? Really? Is that the best you got, chump? Tell yeah what. Make up your mind on WHICH ONE OF 3 RELIGIONS IS RIGHT and lets move on with century please. Thank-you! :old:

This is a joke people, and it NOT meant to insult any Christian-Druids here. Why would I want to insult my awesome teacher?

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Huathe
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 10 Jun 2011, 05:32

Myrde,

I have always found the concept of Lilith an interesting one. I have done quite a bit of reading on her myself. Most people only look at her as a figure representing strong femininity or as simply a legend. But seriously, I do wonder if she really exists or existed. I asked my Methodist Pastor about Lilith possibly being the first wife of Adam. I figured he would shoot it down immediately but I was surprised. He said " There are some things we do not know for sure ". He believed that Eve was the first but admitted in the possibility that maybe something was not known, left out or not told.

In the Testament of Solomon she is known as " Obyzouth " Her name varies with different cultures and times but today " Lilith " is the most well known.

I read in some text, years back that Adam may have had three wives. Lilith being the first, who rejected him and then an unnamed one who Adam watched God create. He was so repulsed by her that he rejected her! Eve was the third. Created from his rib so Woman would be subservient to man. Lilith was created independently from the dust, or mud of the earth, as Adam was and demanded complete equality.

Myrde, you have a way of getting me thinking!
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Heddwen » 10 Jun 2011, 09:27

Now this is getting good! I may have to pick your brains Myrde and HEnt. I always thought that Lilith considered Adam to be a bit of an underperformer and preferred to go and F demons on the beach. She was demonised by the Christians who called her children the LIlim, but exhalted by Pagans as the first feminist.
Who was wife 2?
Perhaps we should open a new thread here, this looks like an interesting discussion.

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DaRC
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Re: Will they return?

Post by DaRC » 10 Jun 2011, 12:40

Hmph what do them Levantine types know anyway :whistle:
men and women were created equally from wood by the 3 Gods...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_and_Embla
17. Then from the throng | did three (Gods) come forth,
From the home of the gods, | the mighty and gracious;
Two without fate | on the land they found,
Ask and Embla, | empty of might.

18. Soul they had not, | sense they had not,
Heat nor motion, | nor goodly hue;
Soul gave Othin, | sense gave Hönir,
Heat gave Lothur | and goodly hue.
Most dear is fire to the sons of men,
most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
and to live a life without shame. (Havamal 68)
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Myrde
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Myrde » 10 Jun 2011, 13:42

Right, well, we're gonna all have to be big boys and girls when dealing with the subject of "Lilith".

Ahem, from what I was taught by my beloved Jewish professor when I studied the Bible as a piece of literature in my first year of college, Lilith was the first wife of Adam, created at the same time, and from the same dust. And th Lord said to them, be fruitful and multiply. Except, they saw themselves above the animals so the Doggy posistion was out of order. They would not mate as the animals. Lilith wanted to be on top, since she was equal to Adam, if not superior since she would give life to their offpspring, not he. Adam wan't happy about that and complained to God. The Old Testament Abramhimic God, being a prick (try and debate this one people) banished her from the Garden and created Eve for Adam out of his rib because APPARENTLY guys had an odd number of ribsback then before this.

In any event, Lilith found Cain later and slept with him, becoming the mother of all demons and succubi, swearing to kill a hundres babies a day and produce a hundred demons in their place. In retaliation, God decreed that a thousand (or 101, depends on the version) children would be born a day, and that 100 of her demons would be killed each day.

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Re: Will they return?

Post by Heddwen » 10 Jun 2011, 15:12

Thanks for clearing that one up. Seems she was one hell of a girl :reddevil: :grin:

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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 10 Jun 2011, 15:32

After leaving Adam, God sent three angels, Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof, to try to retrieve Lilith. They said. " Return or die ". She said " How can I die with the agreement I have made concerning all newborn children ". But I will spare harm to any infant upon seeing an amulet with your images or names upon it. Seeing this she would often turn upon her own.


Actually Lilith could not be the Mother of all Demons. The Holy Bible specifically states that the vast majority of them are rebellious angels.

I don't think Adam was an underperformer. He just wanted to dominate.
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Heddwen » 10 Jun 2011, 15:58

I think you're right HE and the fact that a woman wanted to go on top was probably high in the shock factor stakes at the time. I'm not sure if I'm right here, but I heard that even God was not so immune to her charms either, quickly passing her on to Satan. Although I can't imagine Lilith being passed around anywhere.
The Lilim were prone to copulating on top of sleeping men....to the point that the petrified monks (oh yeah?) would sleep with crucufixes around their todgers in case they had wet dreams.

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Re: Will they return?

Post by Myrde » 10 Jun 2011, 17:50

Thats just it, the Bible doesnt state ANYTHING about fallen Angels. The war in Heaven and Lucifer being cast down was an invention of Milton, used to mirror the chaos that was going on in England at the time of the writing. Afterall, he was a loyalist.

From the Christian bible perspective, Satan doesnt even seem evil at all. In the story of Job, he seemed more respectful and was trying to be a realist, pointing out to God that Job was only loyal because of what God has given him. He tested him, but merely trying to see if God was right. Further more, I doubt that God or the "damned" Satan would still be on such good terms that Satan could come back up to the Heaven with the rest of the angels to report to God.

Meh, she might be the mother of all demons. From a logical view and looking at this as a piece of literature, if God could impregnate a girl, I think that Lilith, being originally "human", could give birth to demonic spawn.

After all, that IS how Merlin was born. *gives a small smile* Course, depends on which version of the tale. In some, its a mortal mother and an Incubus father, or even Satan himself!

I prefer the version in which its the Horned God, or a God of the Earth.

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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 10 Jun 2011, 18:38

Heddwen wrote:I think you're right HE and the fact that a woman wanted to go on top was probably high in the shock factor stakes at the time. I'm not sure if I'm right here, but I heard that even God was not so immune to her charms either, quickly passing her on to Satan. Although I can't imagine Lilith being passed around anywhere.
The Lilim were prone to copulating on top of sleeping men....to the point that the petrified monks (oh yeah?) would sleep with crucufixes around their todgers in case they had wet dreams.
Lilith herself has also been associated with copulating with mortal men during sleep.
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 11 Jun 2011, 05:36

Myrde wrote:Thats just it, the Bible doesnt state ANYTHING about fallen Angels. The war in Heaven and Lucifer being cast down was an invention of Milton, used to mirror the chaos that was going on in England at the time of the writing. Afterall, he was a loyalist .


Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9.

This is probably the most direct scripture in the Bible mentioning Satan and his " fallen " angels. Other verses are widely scattered throughout the Bible. " Fallen " simply means they have been rejected by God and cast out. The vast majority of the Angels who chose to follow Satan did so of their own free will.

Also, The apocryphal Book of Enoch recounts that a group of rebellious angels left heaven and came down to Earth to marry human women and have children with them. This goes along with the accounts of the Nephilim in the days of Noah.
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Myrde » 12 Jun 2011, 15:32

Also, The apocryphal Book of Enoch recounts that a group of rebellious angels left heaven and came down to Earth to marry human women and have children with them. This goes along with the accounts of the Nephilim in the days of Noah.
Actually, it merely calls them the "Sons of God". "They found the Daughters of Man beautiful and came down and had children by them. These were the heroes of Old, the giants and warriors of the world." So we can imply that they are angels or some sort of divine beings, but doesnt make them "rebellious".
Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9.
.....Honestly, Hawthorn old chap, you're going to throw, of all books, Revelation at me? :/ Dude, honestly?

There's exactly seven different accounts of Revelation. 7 different books, all prophesying different stuff about the end. Furthermore, the Bible as a whole has been translated, altered, and switched around dozens of times. Things have been added, subtracted, and completely changed in meaning. Revelation is the PRIMARY offender of this. Honest to God, trust me when I say this, cross my heart and hope to die, earliest possible non-bastardized version of Revelation doesnt even mention or his angels. :/ It mentions the Dragon and the Beast, yeah! But it doesnt outright claim anything of Satan and his multi-tude of fallen. I think that bit came around when it got translated into German. Originally, it was just something against the Romans. Back then, when they said Christ would return and establish the Kingdom, they were thinking in like, 10 or 20 years or so. They thought the end was coming soon, not like... millenia later!

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Huathe
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Huathe » 12 Jun 2011, 17:59

Myrde,

I gotta say. I enjoy conversations with you. And you got it right when you called me " old " chap! :-)

Yeah, I know the Bible has been changed numbers of times and Revelation is part of all that. I just go with what I think I know, see and believe. My father and I often have debates on biblical subjects. He is a bit more bitter on those than I. But I am open to new ideas and observations and to be only 19 years old your knowledge on such things is really good. Probably superior to my own. Thanks for giving me much to think about.

Last night I found myself reading the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Alphabet of Ben Sira. I have some information on Jewish myths, etc in book form as well as some books on the apocrypha and other so-called " missing " books of the Bible. And the Internet is also a good place to do research.

Lilith has always sparked a considerable interest with me, since I learned of her about 20 years ago. I am not exactly sure why. Sarah Mclachlan's " Lilith Fair " got me interested in who the mythological Lilith was.

And Sarah is damn hot! I'd do her in a heartbeat and not be worth a sh*t for days afterwards. :grin:
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Re: Will they return?

Post by Heddwen » 17 Jun 2011, 19:55

Hawthorn_Ent wrote:
Lilith has always sparked a considerable interest with me, since I learned of her about 20 years ago. I am not exactly sure why. Sarah Mclachlan's " Lilith Fair " got me interested in who the mythological Lilith was.
Although the Lilith of the biblical era is far removed in some ways from her triple goddess matriarchal feminist associations in pagan terms.

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