Detecting a transcendent

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JamesNewell
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Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 17 Feb 2014, 00:18

This is a new insight so is tentative. You should be able to understand it unless it is self-secret.

To detect a transcendent, which is then used in magic, one must simultaneously hold two meanings or percepts in ones mind which are partly the same and partly different.

Only certain pairs of partly the same and partly different will work.

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby treegod » 17 Feb 2014, 11:34

Reminds me of Jung's Transcendent Function. We may have two opposites or complements that are in conflict (and simultaneously "stuck" together). To transcend these we need a third point (the Transcendent Function) that doesn't belong with this dychotomy, in order to transcend them: conflict resolved, stick unstuck.

(I don't know if that's what you're talking about, but that's what came to me)

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 17 Feb 2014, 19:13

Yes, it seems like Jung fits there. One thing I've found notable is that Jung did was a Forward for the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching,
Wilhelm, Richard, tns., Cary F. Baynes, tns. into English (1970) THE I CHING OR BOOK OF CHANGES, BOLLINGTON SERIES XIX, THIRD EDITION, Princeton: Princeton University Press.

In the Preface, Jung questioned ordinary cause-effect, then proposed synchronisity as an explanation of what is happening in the practice, and noted readings that applied to him. He mentioned the philosopher Immanuel Kant.

Kant defines the noumenon as that which transcends phenomena, talking about forms in space but this would seem to apply to many things. Basically, when the mind generates a perceived form in space, the ground of the form couldn't be another form at the same level, but rather, must be something that transcends form.

So for example, one couldn't perceive a circle with a template of a square. Rather, what must be the perceiver of the circle must be something that transcends the circle, that transcends form.

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby xidia » 18 Feb 2014, 20:58

That sounds quite a lot like the idea of dialectic commonly used in Marxist political science: you have your thesis (idea/thing), your anti-thesis (it's opposite, but by definition related) and your synthesis (the combining of the two, into something different from and greater than either of them). That synthesis often then becomes a new thesis...

A different way to describe what you meant, or something else entirely?

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 20 Feb 2014, 05:07

I think there are some similarities and some differences.

Hegel wasn't clear about the psychological processes which produced the synthesis. I have far from full knowledge as well, so there are many open questions here.

One difference, though, is that I don't think the two ideas have to be full opposites. They only have to be partly the same and partly different, and that doesn't require that they be opposites, although of course they can in the special case be opposites.

What I think is that this situation sets up a bit of tension. The similarities cause one to try to see them as the same, but the differences cause one to try to see them as different. That tension is partly defused by moving up to the transcendent level, which is another of the kinds of natural perception humans have. In the transcendent, they are both emerging from the same thing, even though when fully emerged, they are partly the same and partly different.
Then, once one has been kicked up into perceiving the transcendent, if one is open to it, one can just stay in the transcendent and do things in it. So the two partly the same partly different ideas are a door to the transcendent.

Then, once one is in the transcendent, one can use the transcendent to do magic, if one has learned how.

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby treegod » 20 Feb 2014, 09:50

The partly like-partly unlike dynamic itself would produce a thesis-antithesis type tension, wouldn't it?
The resolution would be found in the transcendent/synthesis.

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 22 Feb 2014, 19:05

I could see that, thinking broadly. My feeling is that Hagel and Marx had a much narrower view of the thesis-antithesis-synthesis process. So let us just think of this within your terminology,

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby xidia » 24 Feb 2014, 21:09

The partly like-partly unlike dynamic itself would produce a thesis-antithesis type tension, wouldn't it?
The resolution would be found in the transcendent/synthesis.
This is exactly what I was getting at. There's no thesis-antithesis-synthesis between Mars and Cheese because they are too un-alike.

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 27 Feb 2014, 17:16

Yes, and therefore, Mars and Cheese wouldn't make a very good meditation object, or a very good element in a ritual.

However, something like a science fiction description of Mars a bit different from the Mars we know from science could provide a good meditation or ritual object. It is possible that a cheese formed to look just like Mars could work as well.

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby treegod » 28 Feb 2014, 08:44

I think xidia was talking about Mars bars.

I'm not seeing a synthesis between cheese and chocolate; it doesn't sound appetising (I'm sure that doesn't stop some people).

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby xidia » 28 Feb 2014, 11:25

I think xidia was talking about Mars bars.

I'm not seeing a synthesis between cheese and chocolate; it doesn't sound appetising (I'm sure that doesn't stop some people).
I believe my point works with either the planet or the chocolate bar. As JamesNewell says, it's not a good choice for transcendence/synthesis because they're too different, which is what I was trying - perhaps badly - to explain anyway. :)

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby DaRC » 28 Feb 2014, 14:53

I'm not seeing a synthesis between cheese and chocolate
You've never had a good chocolate cheesecake then :-)

However, it seems there is some level of abstraction in this discussion e.g.
1. absence of mind; preoccupation
2. the process of formulating generalized ideas or concepts by extracting common qualities from specific examples
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most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby JamesNewell » 28 Feb 2014, 18:39

DaRC:::However, it seems there is some level of abstraction in this discussion e.g.

Jim:::Yes, the discussion is abstract, but the data comes from my own experiences, in large numbers. I don't know how many people here have had similar experiences.

DaRC:::1. absence of mind; preoccupation

Jim::: There are more than one modality of mind involved. Note that I'm not trying to convert anyone to Buddhism. The tradition you have now is excellent. It's just that I have a lot of Buddhist references which have some information relevant to other mystical traditions.

Then, in Lama Anagarika Govinda, THE WAY OF THE WHITE CLOUD, 1970, Berkeley, California: Shambala Publications, the Hermit Abbot of Lachen told Lama Govinda that there are 18 kinds of Emptiness. I met Yogi Chen, and he demonstrated to me that he was at least fully telepathic. He told a friend of mine, Mike, that there are the 18 kinds of Emptiness and said that each can be used to do something different. I have only experienced three kinds of space, but I don't know whether or not my 3 forms of space are as advanced as the Emptinesses. I think I'm probably not up to the top level in those. Nevertheless, this is something people might watch for in Pagan meditations.

Then, Bhikku Syanamoli,translator., Bhadantacarya Buddhaghosa, VIDUDDHIMAGGA, a number of different kinds of meditation are discussed. Actually, some references say there are 84,000 kinds of meditations, which in the Asian language use of such numbers means more but indefinite. Your meditations would be part of the 84,000. Buddhism is very open to other religious traditions.The highest forms of meditation are the formless states, or the immaterial states, which are interesting to think about, but I don't think I have gotten all the way up to them, although some of my meditations are similar but lower level.

The first immaterial state is that of boundless space. Then, that meditation is surmounted, or rolled up, and so forth to move on to boundless consciousness. Thus, boundless consciousness doesn't include space, Boundless consciousness is surmounted by the state of Nothingness, but this can't be a real nothing at all. It must be a perception of nothingness. When nothingness is surmounted, the final meditation is the stare of neither perceiving nor non-perceiving.

As with all ancient literature, I don't know how accurate it is. Among other things, most such texts have been copied by hand for many centuries, and over time, a number of errors get incorporated into them. However, the material is something one can watch for in one's own practices. For example, in Druid meditations, are there sometimes states like boundless space and sometimes states like boundless consciousness?

DaRC:::2. the process of formulating generalized ideas or concepts by extracting common qualities from specific examples

Yes, an important process. Sometimes, as in science, something else is done. The generalized ideas are derived logically from other ideas, and then the thinker looks for examples.

Jim

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Re: Detecting a transcendent

Postby GrayFire » 16 Sep 2015, 18:07

Just a quick thought here, for me, really everything posted/responded to, just keeps naturally bringing the term "Alchemy" to mind. :thinking:
Though this is Our Funeral Pyre
We can walk right on through this Fire
Cleansed and New We'll reach that Distant Shore
Where We won't have to cry anymore
Don't fear this Fire's Flames
They will carry Us to the Place We know Our True Names...GrayFire


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