Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

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DJ Droood
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby DJ Droood » 03 Jun 2010, 23:41

As for Davin's idea that we should judge: I have learned that you cannot judge others before you have judged yourself.
Do you have the correct scripture quote for this? I'd like to look it up in the source material.

Matthew 7:1-6 (New International Version)

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
<continuing on, bros and sistas, to a salient part of a most remarkable chapter>:

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mt. 3.10 · Lk. 3.9
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mt. 12.33

:warm:

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby treegod » 04 Jun 2010, 00:24

A cynical question (no need to answer, really there isn't) but what's better/worse; oil burnt into the atmosphere or leaking into the sea? I suppose quite enough has become leaked into the atmosphere already...

What scares me from reading the news papers is that they're saying it won't be fully resolved until 2 months! :huh: :blink: :(

If I can take anything postive from this is this; the reality of Peak Oil is drawn closer and no one is going to get profits from the oil leaked. In fact BP is losing money :hug: And may not even survive :yay: Aren't they one of the oil companies denying peak oil? Or at least saying it's not something to think or worry about right now? Out damn spot...

The opportunist in me thinks that this is a good time to reinforce the fact in people's mind that oil is not sustainable or renewable. And in large quantities does no favours for the environment whether dumped in the atmosphere or the sea.

Surely a no-brainer. Surely.

Surely surely surely.

Surely???

Surely!!!!!! :roll:

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Davin Raincloud » 04 Jun 2010, 01:05

If I can take anything postive from this is this
I understand the turn of phrase,

But myself, this is no time for 'positive thinking', or to try to put any kind of positive spin on this.

If you understand what I mean.

Now is the time for Anger and to be pissed off and to use that energy to make changes.

Positive thinking and positive spinning simply dillutes the flame.

We need cranky Druid powarr!!!! :old: :old:

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Davin Raincloud » 04 Jun 2010, 04:54

Some stats to back me up.

http://www.grist.org/article/who-are-th ... favorably/'

Who are the 22% of Americans who view BP favorably?
Those most likely to view BP favorably are, respectively: Republicans, conservatives, Americans over age 65, whites, and males. Those least likely to view BP favorably are, respectively: liberals, blacks, Democrats, Americans between the ages of 18-29, and females.

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby treegod » 04 Jun 2010, 08:24

We need cranky Druid powarr!!!! :old: :old:
That sounds like positive thinking to me :-) After "If I can take anything postive from this is this;" sounds a bit Cranky Druid doesn't it? :wink:
Those most likely to view BP favorably are, respectively: Republicans, conservatives, Americans over age 65, whites, and males. Those least likely to view BP favorably are, respectively: liberals, blacks, Democrats, Americans between the ages of 18-29, and females.
Yes, not suprising. :roll:

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Aylyn » 04 Jun 2010, 09:39

Now is the time for Anger and to be pissed off and to use that energy to make changes.
Well, that is at least something I agree upon. I am not asking to forgive and forget, but I am not blind to my own errors, and if anything, I want to see that kind of anger turned into something positive, such as more pressure on the development of renewable and environmenatlly more friendly energies. Even people who are usually indifferent to the problems are now sitting up and listening, so if you want to make a point for change, now is your time.

OTOH - Find a scapegoat to unload your anger upon, and people will lean back with the feeling that "justice has been done" and go back to business as usual. Which means we will not change anything in the long run. So I much rather not look for a scapegoat, but for change.
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Davin Raincloud » 04 Jun 2010, 10:00

OTOH - Find a scapegoat to unload your anger upon, and people will lean back with the feeling that "justice has been done" and go back to business as usual. Which means we will not change anything in the long run. So I much rather not look for a scapegoat, but for change.
What I feel will actually happen is: Oh No, don't say that about conservatives, it was just an accident... etc etc etc.... then problem is dealt with and everyone forgets and it's Drill Baby Drill again.

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Aylyn » 04 Jun 2010, 11:14

So it is out turn to strike while the iron is hot and to keep it hot. Now is the time to act on what we actually want, to get someting new going, and wasting time on blame is just that: a waste
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Dendrias » 04 Jun 2010, 11:25

Chapeau, Aylyn!

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Davin Raincloud » 04 Jun 2010, 11:44

So it is out turn to strike while the iron is hot and to keep it hot. Now is the time to act on what we actually want, to get someting new going, and wasting time on blame is just that: a waste
Blame is about a couple of things, bringing Justice to the guilty but also preventative.

Sometimes we need to cut the cancer out to stop it spreading.

Especially when those who are to blame use subterfuge, lies and illegal means to hide their guilt. They hide for a while and resurface in order to strike again, when everyone has forgotten.

And history then repeats itself.

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby DJ Droood » 04 Jun 2010, 12:58

Sometimes we need to cut the cancer out to stop it spreading.
That is fine Davin, as long as you don't "blame" anyone for giving you the cancer..it is your own fault if you smoke ciggies or work in an environment with dangerous chemicals, or live near an industrial waste dump....why linger over the "who did it", or "who let it happen", when we are all blame? Channel your anger into something positive, like writing a somewhat strongly worded, but non-accusatory note to your local representative, meditatiing and blaming yourself for living near the toxic dump and taking that job in the factory, and enjoying a legally sanctioned smoke at breaktime..actually, that is a loophole in the "blame game"...you ARE allowed to blame yourself, just not the super-giant corporations and governments, who are doing their very best for us...I mean, accidents happent o everyone, right? I spilled paint in my garage just last week!

Oh, and forgive..it is very important to forgive.
John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"
So although the oil "appears" to be gushing unchecked from the ocean floor, and "looks" like it might be washing up on shore and destroying lives and economies, I think we need to ponder things some more...not rush to conclusions..wait for the report..... :read:


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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Dendrias » 04 Jun 2010, 13:25

Anger is fine, especially in this case, anger is necessary to start a change.

But, there is, I think, or there should be a difference between "to blame" and "to find the guilty one(s)". Druids of old were judges, as You said, Davin Raincloud. I don't know by which standards they made their sentence, but to-day judges should not be guided by pre-judging. So, to prevent something like that from happening, to find the guilty one might be helpful. To blame someone ("blame is the act of censuring, holding responsible, making negative statements about an individual or group that their action or actions are socially or morally irresponsible" [wikipedia s.v. "blame"] - forgive me if I got the meaning wrong), might not help in the first place, imo.

If You're looking for the guilty one - look hard. And think about whether You're looking for the one who is guilty in first, second or third instance. It might be Jack Miller who forgot one screw, it might be the authorities who forgot to ask whether form xy had been filled out, it might be the government who forgot not to drill, it might be the conservatives or the whole western and eastern society who use BP-products.

Saying that does not mean I think that BP is a poor victim of false accusations.

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Merlyn » 04 Jun 2010, 18:43

"Vent"
An action of frustration.
"Who do I thank for such a thing as this?" :-)

Well (deep I know)... They have a lid on it, so to speak.
Granted the foolproof system failed. Let that be a lesson to us all and the fools who said it was fail-safe..
Now I see apologies being made on TV by BP with the last words, "well make right by it".
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Twig » 04 Jun 2010, 20:11

I think this pretty much sums up all we have said. And it's unusual for this particular columnist to conclude with even a quasi-hopeful ending. (BTW, prognosticators has forecast oil on the beaches of England in about a month).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... DTL&nl=fix
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Merlyn » 04 Jun 2010, 20:24

The well may not be completely sealed off until at least until August, when BP hopes to finish drilling two relief wells.

"Our task is to contain the oil, ultimately to eliminate the leaking well and, most importantly, to clean up the oil, defend the shoreline and restore the shoreline where the oil comes ashore, so we return it to the original state," said Tony Hayward, BP's chief executive officer.

Hayward appears this week in television ads launched as part of a national campaign to restore the British oil company's tarnished reputation. In them, Hayward apologizes and promises to "make this right."
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby DJ Droood » 04 Jun 2010, 20:41

Hayward appears this week in television ads launched as part of a national campaign to restore the British oil company's tarnished reputation.
I think they should re-brand the disaster as "the free oil give-away promotion." I am now absolutely convinced that it would work, and many people would probably buy BP t-shirts with that slogan on it.

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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Twig » 04 Jun 2010, 21:07

Yo, dudes -- I'd love to read your opinion of the article I posted. It's not required reading; just curious what y'all think.
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Aitrus » 04 Jun 2010, 22:26

Twig,

I'm going to tick off a few people with this, but this guy has really rubbed me the wrong way. Hope you don't mind.

I read it, and I didn't like it. It's like hearing a Liberal Rush shouting about how he doesn't like the realities of the world. Capitalism has existed ever since one caveman traded some potatoes for a block of goat cheese. This guy makes it sound as if we could just eliminate the evil that is capitalism, Utopia would be well on it's way to reality.

I agree that there's no blaming Ma Nature or "Acts of God" for this one, but what he's doing is akin to blaming the entire auto industry and our need to transport ourselves from one place to another for a record massive 5-lane pileup in LA. Doesn't make sense to me.

He is right in that humans have a bottomless need to use energy. It's who we are. Ever since one of the Ancestors used fire to char a rabbit for dinner we have used energy to improve our lives in one way or another. He's wrong to say that the use of oil, and the pursuit of acquiring oil for it's use, is evil. Let me explain.

Before oil, what did we have? Coal, wood and whale oil for the most part. Was it evil to use those methods? If so, then you must also say that we still belong in caves. The discovery of using the world's bounties, wood early on and then various other methods, led to advancements that, without which, we would not be as advanced as we are today. We have come so far that without oil you don't have nuclear power, wind power, solar power, etc. It's impossible to do on any scale reasonable enough to provide for the energy needs of the world today.

Could we give up oil? Sure, but only if we were willing to go back to the days of the horse-drawn carriage and leech-applying doctors. Oh, and we would be making ourselves vulnerable for attack and invasion by countries that have no compunction about using oil to fuel their war machine.

As to capitalism: he decries capitalism as evil and used only by greedy people. He needs to take a look at himself first. If you go to work, earn money, pay taxes and buy anything from anybody, then you willingly participate in capitalism. You must label yourself as part of those that are "greedy" if you save for retirement or use a single penny to improve your own living conditions beyond the bare needs of food, water and shelter. There's no getting away from it. Only a rare few live apart from it, such as Dugout Dick.http://www.idahostatesman.com/2010/05/0 ... idaho.html. While it's nice to read about the Dugout Dicks of the world, it's folly to believe that humanity can live like that. It's impossible for us to survive as a species in this way.

Somebody had to get the oil in the beginning. It's hard work, risky, and involves a huge investment of time, money and energy to acquire and refine. The exact same is true of any industry, from growing food to banking to producing cotton to running a hotel. Why shouldn't a person be rewarded for that work? And if somebody discovers a better, cheaper, more cost efficient way of doing that work, then they have earned a savings. What makes that concept evil?

As a Druid, I understand my place in this world. My place is to live at peace with the world around me as it is, not change it to fit an idealogical dream that has nothing to do with Druidry. I must learn to live with the fact that there are indeed overly greedy people out there who desire more than they need to live comfortably, who would sell their own mothers for a nickel. I must also learn to live with the fact that there are dreamers out there who would sacrifice their own comforts and freedoms and those of their fellow man (without his consent) in order to "make the world a better place".

Both are equally wrong, and this columnist seems to miss that little fact of life.

Sorry if you guys don't like the above, but I was asked for my opinion, and that's how I see it.

Ya know, it's funny. Here I often get into arguments because I'm considered too conservative. On the 2 other boards I'm on, I get into arguments because I'm considered too liberal. Life is funny sometimes.
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Twig » 05 Jun 2010, 07:42

Hi, Aitrus --

I, personally, did not feel ticked off at all. I was just happy to get a forthright, honest response. I've enjoyed your posts before).... I 'm a reader of this guy's column, but I so many times do not agree with him. He radiates no reverence about much of anything and can be bitingly sarcastic and sloppily simplistic. Frequently what I feel from him can almost border on an allusive kind of verbal porn.

But sometimes he nails something so "right" on, like his column on sexual abuse in the Catholic clergy. Edgy, but spot on. I don't feel like that about this particular column, however, I thought he (in his own way) echoed the discussion of this topic. For example, he wrote of the physical horror, which all who have been following this story, have experienced. Then he made us look in the mirror, like Aylyn pointed out on a couple of occasions. Finally, there was the semi-acceptance. plus actually seeing the positive -- also as Aylyn, et. al. have alluded to. In that, he succeeded.

But there was so much else I couldn't stand. Your observation of him as a "Liberal Rush" was great. Loved it! (Unfortunately, there are lots of those around. although the guys on the far right are much more available via radio)... Yes, he's in that posse, but is much more centrist than progressive. Some of these writer's fall waaay off the left. if "right" and "left" were on a continuum of 0 - 100%, I'd rate this writer around 70% leaning left. And from what I hear on Rush's channel, the Tea Bag party would fall into the 70th percentile on the other side. In this manner, both groups meet and discover that they are more alike than different. Hopefully, they'll find out that all people want is the plain and simple truth. Truth, meaning "honesty," not an evangelical experience. I truly hope this happens. I think that for the twain to meet, all character judgment should be completely "unlearned." Just pure honor and respect. Surely there are many people who feel like this...

BTW, I am a total believer in capitalism. I just think it needs to find its moral center again. I grew up in a family business and remember that then I learned how capitalism worked. But I'm not sure what we've got now -- an oligarchy or a plutocracy. Money is god.

The article about Dugout Dan made my week. What a beautiful story (and what a beautiful man). I. I'm sending it to several friends. He became,indeed, a beloved treasure. A shining gem.

So, now I hope I haven't ticked you off! All of these ponderings are just now falling out of my brain onto "paper" and are, therefore, "mushy," not well-formed.

Thanks for writing. :hug:
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Re: Worst Environmental Disaster ever - Who is to Blame

Postby Kernos » 05 Jun 2010, 14:10

Twig:
Yo, dudes -- I'd love to read your opinion of the article I posted. It's not required reading; just curious what y'all think.
I said it earlier in some thread here. The Black Death is the responsibility of all of us. The oil companies would not be making huge profits or doing dangerous drilling, if there were not a huge demand for oil. Being human we of course tend to find someone else to blame AND punish so WE feel less guilty. We should all be taxed for the cleanup and will via higher gasoline prices, directly or indirectly. "The spill may be many things, but more than anything else it is a giant, horrifying mirror."
Aitrus:
While it's nice to read about the Dugout Dicks of the world, it's folly to believe that humanity can live like that. It's impossible for us to survive as a species in this way.
Indeed, not! Humans lived like this for most of their existence on earth. During the last great ice age, the human population dropped to 5000-10,000 individuals, a near extinction level event. But we managed to survive it. What cannot survive is our culture/civilization. But then it never has.

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