Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

A forum for the discussion of heuristic questions relating to Druidry using verifiable methods. Fo-fúair!
Life is short, the art long, opportunity fleeting, experiment treacherous, judgment difficult. — Hippocrates

Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.

This is a public forum, viewable by guests as well as members, and is cataloged by most search engines.
Forum rules
If you find a topic of interest and want to continue the discussion then start a new topic under The Hearthfire with a similar name and add a link back to the topic you want to continue.
User avatar
Lily
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 3372
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 10:36
Gender: Female
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Lily » 27 Feb 2011, 17:24

If you take a line from the Merry Maidens to the Hurler's (or King Doniert's stone) to Glastonbury Abbey to Silbury Hill a "Line" if formed; the "St. Michaels Ley Line"
I see the corollary in that if a pattern of megalithic sites form a grid of consequence you could also pinpoint all the pubs in London so that a similar pattern of "Pub Lines" would be formed.
you are already on the right track...

Watson's definition was four points connected with a line, and he gave himself a latitude of 1/4 degrees too, according to Wikipedia.
look at this pic
Image
80 4-point "ley lines" pass through 137 random points.
The sheer amount of places he was able to pick, from churches, hilltops, megalithic sites in England, makes it not very difficult to find alignments.
Lines and points on a map cover wide areas on the ground. With 1:63360 (1-inch-to-the-mile) maps a 1/100-inch (1/4 mm) wide line represents a path over 50 feet (15 m) across. And in travelling across a sheet, an angle of 1/4 degree encompasses something like an additional 600 feet (200 m).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_line
Also, the notion of "energies" flowing along these lines were not something that Watson cared about. At all.
In fact, that was invented by Dion Fortune.

I still do not see a reason to assume (note not "believe") that there are aligned monuments anyhwere, not only in England.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

Lily


"You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into"
-Ben Goldacre

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Explorer » 27 Feb 2011, 17:30

wolf560 wrote: You have stated that dowsing does not work and therefore any energies 'detected by dowsing' would therefore also disappear in a "puff of logic".
Lets stop talking about "energies", because I have no clue what you mean with that. The experiment was about running water, but I guess you could handle it the same way. No, I don't say running water disappears, it just was not detected by dowsing.
wolf560 wrote: Your responses however brings three questions to mind;
1. Are you saying that you believe Ley Lines were all discovered using dowsing rods?
2. Are you stating that there are no energies within, around, or flowing to-from these Ley points?
3. Are you stating that the Ley Lines do not exist?
1. No, what I understood is that Ley Lines were discovered on maps. By litterly connecting dots you get lines.
2. Yes. The only energies that flow from and to those point are the potential cash flowing by hippies buying into it, giving the local area's of Glastonbury, Avebury, Stonehenge, etc an economic boost. If energy is the potential to cause change, then this is energy.
3. Depends how you define 'exist'. I can draw lines on a map from point to point, so then the line 'exists'. I see ley lines no different.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
Jake
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 300
Joined: 22 Jul 2009, 02:08
Gender: Male
Location: TX
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Jake » 27 Feb 2011, 17:46

Nico wrote: Ehm, lightning?
I think visible lightning (or any spark) is made of plasma formed by the electrical discharge which is itself invisible, no?

Dowsing for water is really popular where I'm from in Pennsylvania. They usually call it "water-witching" and some more rationally-minded folks (and fundamentalist Christians terrified of witchcraft) consider it a superstition left over from our Pennsylvania-German heritage.

Many well-drilling companies there either employ or are owned by a dowser who locates the best spot to dig. My parents' well was located in this way. They had to dig very deep and the water flow was always very low. The dowsers said it was lucky they found water at all and this was the best anyone could hope for on this particular piece of land.

Years later it was discovered that there was a much better source on the property quite near the first but much closer to the surface and with much higher flow. I think it was discovered when the neighbors drilled their well, without any water-witching. My stepfather is a civil engineer so you'd think he'd know better than to believe in such stuff.

Ley lines remind me of Bible Codes - not hard to find any kind of pattern when you go looking for one.
Image

Dendrias
Posts: 569
Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 11:12
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Dendrias » 27 Feb 2011, 18:20

That's funny!
So, Ley lines are "sighted lines" between certain "monuments". I didn't know that.
I think, and that's what this discussion imho was about at least for two pages (but I'm not sure), people understand (no, I have to use that e-word again) energy-lines under the term ley-lines.
Let it put me this way: If people think that leylines are "sighted lines", it seems pretty ... well, strange to dowse for them. And I thought they were doing that. Obviously they don't.
If leylines are "sighted lines" between certain monuments, Your question was:
Are lines that connect "monuments" by sight existing outside of Britain? Well, for Germany, the Blackwood Forest might be a hinderance.

I've learned something in here. Ta.

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by wolf560 » 27 Feb 2011, 18:53

Nico wrote:... The only energies that flow from and to those point are the potential cash flowing by hippies buying into it, giving the local area's of Glastonbury, Avebury, Stonehenge, etc
LMAO..!!!
Too funny...

When I was at Stonehenge, Tintagel, and Avebury back in 2006 I did not notice any 'metaphysical' shoppes or vendors nearby.
Is that still true today?
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
D'Arzhur
OBOD Druid
Posts: 756
Joined: 22 Jan 2008, 20:07
Gender: Female
Location: Netherlands/Breizh
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by D'Arzhur » 27 Feb 2011, 18:56

From a dowser (read his interview in the Book of English Magic) on Dowsing and Earth Energy:

http://www.hamishmiller.co.uk/index.php ... 3&Itemid=3

on Earth Energy and Ley Lines:

http://www.hamishmiller.co.uk/index.php ... 4&Itemid=4
D'Arzhur
Tradu/i\re
ImageImage
Image :daraoi: :awen:

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by wolf560 » 27 Feb 2011, 19:02

Dendrias wrote:Are lines that connect "monuments" by sight existing outside of Britain? Well, for Germany, the Blackwood Forest might be a hinderance.
I lived in Northern Bavaria from 1984-1988 and again from 1991-1995 (Aschaffenburg and then Schweinfurt).
Every night on 30 April and 30 October I believe we could see fires being lit on the tops of nearby hills to the west of us and moments later fires would be lit on the hilltops east of us.
I knew of the "Fires of Beltane being lit sequentially" stories back then, but had not connected the stories to what I was seeing in Germany initially.

This is just a theory of mine (and therefore UPG), but I do see a connection...
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Explorer » 27 Feb 2011, 19:12

Dendrias wrote:That's funny!
So, Ley lines are "sighted lines" between certain "monuments". I didn't know that.
I think, and that's what this discussion imho was about at least for two pages (but I'm not sure), people understand (no, I have to use that e-word again) energy-lines under the term ley-lines.
Let it put me this way: If people think that leylines are "sighted lines", it seems pretty ... well, strange to dowse for them. And I thought they were doing that. Obviously they don't.
If leylines are "sighted lines" between certain monuments, Your question was:
Are lines that connect "monuments" by sight existing outside of Britain? Well, for Germany, the Blackwood Forest might be a hinderance.

I've learned something in here. Ta.

"The concept of "ley lines" is generally thought of in relation to Alfred Watkins, but the stimulus and background for the concept is attributed to the English astronomer Norman Lockyer.[3][4][5] On 30 June 1921, Watkins visited Blackwardine in Herefordshire, and went riding a horse near some hills in the vicinity of Bredwardine, when he noted that many of the footpaths there seemed to connect one hilltop to another in a straight line"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ley_line
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
Lily
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 3372
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 10:36
Gender: Female
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Lily » 27 Feb 2011, 21:12

wolf560 wrote:I lived in Northern Bavaria from 1984-1988 and again from 1991-1995 (Aschaffenburg and then Schweinfurt).
Every night on 30 April and 30 October I believe we could see fires being lit on the tops of nearby hills to the west of us and moments later fires would be lit on the hilltops east of us.
I knew of the "Fires of Beltane being lit sequentially" stories back then, but had not connected the stories to what I was seeing in Germany initially.

This is just a theory of mine (and therefore UPG), but I do see a connection...
I live close enough to Bavaria and there are hillfires here as well, mainly on Aug 1st (our national holiday) and no, they aren't lit in sequence. The communal ones are lit when the local politico is done with his speech, and the private ones when everyone has eaten and drunk enough.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

Lily


"You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into"
-Ben Goldacre

Dendrias
Posts: 569
Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 11:12
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Dendrias » 27 Feb 2011, 21:56

If leylines are footpaths or lines from one hilltop to another ... well, then, to come back to the OP, yes, they exist in the Americas, and in Australia, and in China, and so on.
But that's not the point of the OP, is it, wolf560?

User avatar
Lily
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 3372
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 10:36
Gender: Female
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Lily » 27 Feb 2011, 22:00

even if they are "lines connecting ancient sites of worship" they do.
but we have no evidence that the builders of those sites did intend to place them on a particular line, just that we can draw a line on a map
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

Lily


"You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into"
-Ben Goldacre

Dendrias
Posts: 569
Joined: 03 Mar 2009, 11:12
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Dendrias » 27 Feb 2011, 22:12

Just found an article (alas, in German), that
1. paraphrases Watkins' theory as: prehistoric trading routes were marked by heaps of stones; these heaps were, some time later, seen as holy places ... that's why henges and cathedral were built over them.
2. cites different examples of "ways": Geisterwege/Leichenwege in Germany, Prussia and elsewhere, "roads" in north-, middle- and southamerica.
The site is set up by a group called "skeptics, society to scientifically examine parascience" (well, that fits in here, doesn't it?), but I haven't read it well enough to verify that. I'm full of suspicion.

User avatar
Lily
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 3372
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 10:36
Gender: Female
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Lily » 27 Feb 2011, 22:48

oh dear, our own PCG is talknig about ley lines just now...
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/witchtalk/ ... -carr-gomm
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

Lily


"You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into"
-Ben Goldacre

User avatar
Corwen
Posts: 1660
Joined: 14 May 2008, 09:46
Gender: Male
Location: East Dorset
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Corwen » 27 Feb 2011, 23:30

I think ley lines started out as a theory that ancient sites, barrows etc were laid out in straight lines, primarily for route finding but possibly because straight alignments had some ritual significance. Only later was it decided by some that these were lines of energy, not just alignments. Then of course it became possible to have lines of energy that weren't straight... Only very spiritual and sensitive people can see these of course... All these things are called ley lines, but are not the same at all. Linear alignments of barrows etc certainly exist, but are within sight and on a small scale, and this doesn't prove the whole hypothesis.

I heard of a ley line sceptic who mapped the position of all the Woolworth stores in the UK and found some striking alignments, some seemingly highly improbable, which goes to show what a wonderful thing randomness is.

Water divining is a separate issue, but I have never seen any proof this works.

The sad thing is that all this loony pseudo science draws attention away from, and damages by association, genuine research into magnetic and radioactive anomalies, sonic oddities etc which are often found at sacred sites.
My Homepage, music, instrument making, articles, pilgrimage and more! http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk
My Blog: http://www.katecorwen.wordpress.com
My Twitter Account: https://twitter.com/KATEandCORWEN
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kate-Cor ... 840?ref=hl


User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Explorer » 28 Feb 2011, 18:54

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
reilz81
OBOD Bard
Posts: 173
Joined: 05 Feb 2011, 01:24
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by reilz81 » 31 Mar 2011, 14:21

no evidence i find that strange as its been a practice used to find water since i dont know when the first time i saw it i must admit i was skeptical till i dug a hole and there was water right where the dowser said there would be i believe the water type of dowsing actually has some scientific reasoning as to the positive and negative aspects of the earths poles and our own positive and negative charge and the water being conductive of both i wouldnt be surprised if theres even a scientific therom(sp?) about dowsing

as to the leylines they could be centres of high magnetic stones or even to do with the tectonic plates

User avatar
Lily
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 3372
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 10:36
Gender: Female
Location: Switzerland
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Lily » 31 Mar 2011, 22:48

Reilz Honey, if you had read the entire thread you'd have found that we have discussed dowsing for water further up - It doesn't work. It has been proven not to work.

As for magnetism along ley lines, that as well would be detectable. No one has detected anything of the sort.
Ley/"Energy" lines are also not situated above known fault lines.
bright blessed days, dark sacred nights

Lily


"You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into"
-Ben Goldacre

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by wolf560 » 01 Apr 2011, 02:56

I guess I am wondering if it was more (originally) something where the original makers of these sites wanted the sites to be able to communicate (perhaps 'Coordinate') with each other?

I too have little faith in the dowsing rods and the magnetic fields and such.

But I do notice that there still could be reasons for having each site see the other one, especially if a large group of connected tribes and villages wanted to say "light the Beltane Fires on Tara hill" in sequence....
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Corwen
Posts: 1660
Joined: 14 May 2008, 09:46
Gender: Male
Location: East Dorset
Contact:

Re: Ley Lines; All over the World or just in Europe?

Post by Corwen » 07 Apr 2011, 12:55

I suspect sight lines were used in ritual, with fires being lit or flags raised in sight of each other to co-ordinate rituals. Some of these are very precisely arranged, like the well known fact that you can see a fire lit on Silbury Hill from the site of the obelisk in Avebury only when the corn is cut on the intervening ridge. There may have been some symbolic reason for sites being able to see each other which we don't know about. The shapes of stones sometimes seem chosen to mirror the shapes of hills in the surrounding landscape as if to bring the hill into the circle.
My Homepage, music, instrument making, articles, pilgrimage and more! http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk
My Blog: http://www.katecorwen.wordpress.com
My Twitter Account: https://twitter.com/KATEandCORWEN
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kate-Cor ... 840?ref=hl

Locked

Return to “The Skeptical Druid”