Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Huathe » 18 Jan 2011, 16:56

Bartholomew

I just want to say I hold nothing against you and I have said nothing agressive towards you. It is probably best we end the above conversation we have been having. Nothing productive is coming from it.

Nico,

Thank you for seeing what I have been trying to do and apparently coming to my aid, but it angered Bartholomew even more, I think. I mean't no harm or discontent towards her. Anyway. It is best we end that part of this conversation here, and as far as that is concerned as Sonja has said. " This is not the right place on the forum for it ".

We druids should have peace among ourselves. :shake:

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Bartholomew » 18 Jan 2011, 20:54

Yes peace to all. Draw a line under it. A learning curve for me. I appreciate your honesty chaps.
Peace, love and light. :shake: :shake: :shake:

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by reilz81 » 13 Apr 2011, 09:25

the proof of souls is easy just take a few of those cameras that can film auras and take them to an aged home or something and film the changes on the aura when someone passes over even if you choose to pick this to pieces i did find an interesting page which details the changes that go on in the aura when a person passes over http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/he ... rbruce.htm

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Lily » 13 Apr 2011, 17:59

Yes, I choose to pick this to pieces, as this is the skeptical druid sub-forum.

No one has proven that auras exist.

People who have claimed they can see auras, have not been able to see them if a person stood behind a screen that went just to the top of their heads (the experiment went like this: there either was or was not a person behind the screen, and the voyant had to say if there was, and the result was that they did no better than chance.)

No one has proven that photographs of auras, or Kirlian photography (just another method) are anything but optical or electrostatic effects.

I say it again, hoping in simple enough terms: in the eye of science and skeptical inquiry, auras do not exist. There is no biological basis for them and they aren't detectable using any method appropriate to science.

I haven't even started discussing that auras are not = souls.


This thread is about the purpose of the skeptical druids, so if you want to further discuss this, please ask the moderators to split into a new thread.
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Daire » 13 Apr 2011, 18:02

A bit out of left field, but wandering around these boards I was becoming increasingly anxious with a lot of the whoo whoo I was seeing here and there. This post makes me feel better. :-)

Dáire

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Lily » 13 Apr 2011, 18:03

Make yourself right at home :warm: :tiphat: :gulp:
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by DJ Droood » 13 Apr 2011, 18:25

Daire wrote:A bit out of left field, but wandering around these boards I was becoming increasingly anxious with a lot of the whoo whoo I was seeing here and there. This post makes me feel better. :-)

Dáire
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Explorer » 13 Apr 2011, 18:53

Daire wrote:A bit out of left field, but wandering around these boards I was becoming increasingly anxious with a lot of the whoo whoo I was seeing here and there. This post makes me feel better. :-)

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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by cursuswalker » 14 Apr 2011, 12:57

HOW DID I MISS THIS WONDERFUL THREAD??? :D
Bartholomew wrote:Well I will discuss anything anywhere, I'm easy. The big big problem with talk of spirits and ouija boards and tarot and healing and dowsing and praying and anything that is outside the realm of the five senses is................ just that. It is subjective and good old concrete scientific proof just won't cut the mustard DJ. So I do not think that any discussion on such matters on any forum will convince anyone of anything. Seeing is believing and all that. It is by the grace of God that I am here discussing this!
"Reiki is an experience not an explanation!" Taken from my newly developed and written holistic therapy brochure. And you can say I am up my own arse with that statement but it is a lived and learned statement. Yes. I'm on this side of the fence!
The problem with the above is that "spirits and ouija boards and tarot and healing and dowsing and praying and anything that is outside the realm of the five senses" are NOT outside the range of the five senses.....IF they exist.

If we can detect the traces of the beginning of the Universe then I am sure we can find ways to test for these things.

spirits: Can they be detected by means other than the human eye? If so let's see the evidence. If not then what is the proposed mechanism whereby light behaves differently with regard to the retina? I have one: IMAGINATION AND HALLUCINATION

ouija boards: Only people who speak a different language to that of the spirit being contacted allowed to touch the pointy thing that apparently cannot be moved on its own.

tarot: SMART predictions (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic and Time-bounded). Measure outcomes made by trained practitioners compared to those made by them from random cards picked by a machine.

healing: Clinical Trial anyone?

dowsing: see James Randi's test of this. Fairly easy to find on YouTube, though I can't find the link from work.

praying: See the Great Prayer Experiment (sponsored by the Templeton Foundation...though they don't like to talk about it) which demonstrated that knowing you are being prayed for WORSENS recovery rates.

Any questions?
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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by DJ Droood » 14 Apr 2011, 13:18

cursuswalker wrote:tarot: SMART predictions (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistc and Time-bounded). Measure outcomes made by trained practitioners compared to those made by them from random cards picked by a machine.
In defense of tarot, my experience with it is more of a "folk therapy" than a predictive tool...the cards act as a key to discussion and probing..."cold reading" might be used by con artists, but I think it can also work as a way to encourage a person to talk about an issue that is bothering them...your subject has an upside-down Hierophant in the spread...you say..."oh, you are having trouble with your boss"...and the person opens up about their boss...of course, almost everyone has a problem with an a$$*ole boss (somewhere up the line...just keep subtly digging), so it isn't magic, but the card can stimulate conversation regarding an area where the person would like to unburden or get some advice....and my experiences with professional therapists is that a card reader's folk wisdom is usually about as useful as psychobabble. (and much less expensive)
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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by Explorer » 14 Apr 2011, 14:16

DJ Droood wrote:
cursuswalker wrote:tarot: SMART predictions (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistc and Time-bounded). Measure outcomes made by trained practitioners compared to those made by them from random cards picked by a machine.
In defense of tarot, my experience with it is more of a "folk therapy" than a predictive tool...the cards act as a key to discussion and probing..."cold reading" might be used by con artists, but I think it can also work as a way to encourage a person to talk about an issue that is bothering them...your subject has an upside-down Hierophant in the spread...you say..."oh, you are having trouble with your boss"...and the person opens up about their boss...of course, almost everyone has a problem with an a$$*ole boss (somewhere up the line...just keep subtly digging), so it isn't magic, but the card can stimulate conversation regarding an area where the person would like to unburden or get some advice....and my experiences with professional therapists is that a card reader's folk wisdom is usually about as useful as psychobabble. (and much less expensive)
I don't think tarot is even meant to be a predictive tool. In dutch we say "waarzeggerij", which translates as "truth saying".

I sometimes do blind spreads, leaving the cards face down, which initially makes quite an impression on the people who watch it :grin:.
It works just as well as regular spreads, but gives it you some insight in how the process works.
Instead of turning the cards over you try to 'sense' what card it is. And then you base your flow of consciousness on that. In the end you get a comprehensive story of your problem/answers/advice.

And then turn over the cards, and notice that you 'sensed' them all totally wrong (hahaha). Which doesn't matter at all, because it is the comprehensive picture that counts. Next step is to simply imagine the cards, which saves money, but then you miss the fun of realising how wrong and right you can be at the same time :grin:.

@Cursuswalker
Regarding those spirits. The biggest misunderstanding often seems to be that something Imaginative is the same as something bad. Ofcourse, all that stuff is Imaginative, so is orgasm (a veeery friendly tantrica told me that the other day :whistle:). So was everything that any human has ever created. Imagination is one of the greatest powers at our disposal, perhaps it should even be an imaginary god(ess). Unfortunately, his/her twin is Stupidity, and they are often hard to distinguish.

I imagine spirits, not when I'm at work (or supposed to be at work, like now), but like when I'm lost in the woods at night (that sometimes happens). And imaginary or not, I follow what I regard as signs and messages. An owl, a deer, a vague shape in the fog, the way a moonlit tree points. And you know what? I always end up somewhere based on that. :grin: (the 'believers' make all this way too complicated)
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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by cursuswalker » 14 Apr 2011, 17:38

Nico wrote: @Cursuswalker
Regarding those spirits. The biggest misunderstanding often seems to be that something Imaginative is the same as something bad.
I didn't say it was. Except when something made up is claimed to actually exist and then, say, is asserted to want certain people to be treated badly.
Of course, all that stuff is Imaginative, so is orgasm (a veeery friendly tantrica told me that the other day :whistle:).
No it isn't. The physical reality of orgasm is verifiable and the reported subjective experience is consistent.
So was everything that any human has ever created. Imagination is one of the greatest powers at our disposal, perhaps it should even be an imaginary god(ess). Unfortunately, his/her twin is Stupidity, and they are often hard to distinguish.
No, something is imaginary until the point when imagining it allows it to be created. This is the difference between a god and a suspension-bridge.
I imagine spirits, not when I'm at work (or supposed to be at work, like now), but like when I'm lost in the woods at night (that sometimes happens). And imaginary or not, I follow what I regard as signs and messages. An owl, a deer, a vague shape in the fog, the way a moonlit tree points. And you know what? I always end up somewhere based on that. :grin: (the 'believers' make all this way too complicated)
I have no issue with the power of creative imagination and use it myself...a lot. It is a way to provide mental short-cuts and is hightly effective.

Again the difference is when people claim the imaginary actually exists AND expect there to be real world outcomes leading from that.
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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by Explorer » 14 Apr 2011, 18:34

cursuswalker wrote:
Nico wrote: @Cursuswalker
Regarding those spirits. The biggest misunderstanding often seems to be that something Imaginative is the same as something bad.
I didn't say it was. Except when something made up is claimed to actually exist and then, say, is asserted to want certain people to be treated badly.
I know, I was building further upon what you said.
cursuswalker wrote:
Nico wrote: Of course, all that stuff is Imaginative, so is orgasm (a veeery friendly tantrica told me that the other day :whistle:).
No it isn't. The physical reality of orgasm is verifiable and the reported subjective experience is consistent.
Depends on what you call 'orgasm'. She said that ejaculation is not orgasm and that people who are paralyzed from the waste can learn to have orgasms by stimulating other body parts, like nipples. I've no proof, I'll ask her to show it to me next time :grin:
cursuswalker wrote:
So was everything that any human has ever created. Imagination is one of the greatest powers at our disposal, perhaps it should even be an imaginary god(ess). Unfortunately, his/her twin is Stupidity, and they are often hard to distinguish.
No, something is imaginary until the point when imagining it allows it to be created. This is the difference between a god and a suspension-bridge.
That is semantics. A suspension bridge was imagined first, and just the idea/image of it could have changed people's life. Planning for the moment that they could cross the river. Building a life near the river, instead of moving away. Even when the bridge would never be build in the end, it's imaginary existence could have its power.
cursuswalker wrote: Again the difference is when people claim the imaginary actually exists AND expect there to be real world outcomes leading from that.
I agree. Although imaginary idea's do lead to real world outcomes (just look at all the idiots burning holy books or blowing each other up over them). And I would also turn that around. Real world outcomes do not mean that you can claim the causes as real and physical.
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Roost » 16 Apr 2011, 18:07

I've enjoyed reading this thread, not long joined the discussion boards (though lurked as a guest on and off for a couple of years) - I've always been wary of fluff and sparkles, nice to see it isn't compulsory in Druidry :grin:
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Re: Otherworld...Did I have a brush with it's darker side?

Post by wolf560 » 17 Apr 2011, 05:12

DJDrood wrote:... the card can stimulate conversation regarding an area where the person would like to unburden or get some advice....and my experiences with professional therapists is that a card reader's folk wisdom is usually about as useful as psychobabble. (and much less expensive)
OK, here goes...

I've read the Tarot since about 1978 and got quite good for awhile.
I would tell people that "if the reading does not go the way they want it to, they should wait a few days and see what happens next.... that there was no reason to leap off a nearby skyscraper"

I was taught by a very experienced reader over the course of about a year or so, her words still stick in my mind every time I sit down with someone I am doing the reading with.
"The cards are but a window into what they know and you need to know in order to answer their question"

She would pull a few cards and explain them in detail; "...this is the Nine of Pentacles and the position it lies in your Crown"... and then she would pause until they spoke.
She never took payment and neither have I in all these years, and for the same reason... we were just someone there to explain the cards, their positions, and the meanings of each to the Querant.

The people seeking answers knew more about themselves than we ever did and they basically answered their own questions.
It wasn't the cards doing anything magical, it was the Querants looking at all the facts one more time in a far greater detail than previously attempted.... and perhaps seeing things a bit more clearly than before.

90% of everything is crap, but the remaining 10% can actually be something substantial....
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by cursuswalker » 17 Apr 2011, 19:31

Did I write that?
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by DJ Droood » 17 Apr 2011, 21:39

cursuswalker wrote:Did I write that?
No, that was mine....and I stand by it.


(btw, what is the expiry date for editing posts? I sometimes like to go back and fix humiliating spelling errors or redact text, and I find I can't with older posts now. )
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by wolf560 » 18 Apr 2011, 03:24

Whoops..!!!

My apologies... that was DJ's reply to another quote of yours Cursuswalker...

Editing it now for clarity
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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by Bart » 21 Apr 2011, 20:01

I have had a scientific training and have been reading the "fluf"
What I experience is that if you follow either to the extreme you miss out on the opportunities.
Explaining everything with science will leave a lot of answers unaswered just because we have not developed the right meausring device. And you never will because you do not accept other possibilities. The official statement is that science is open for any possibility, unfortunately it is the scientist who is doing the work.
The same with the fluffy stuff, if you rely on the deities for everything: you do not have the right to live for yourself. God will guide your actions.

Wasn't it said in the greek times that the middle ground would probably be the best place. Or do I deprive you of a place of bikkering?

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Re: Purpose of "The Skeptical Druid" (was: Otherworld...)

Post by DJ Droood » 21 Apr 2011, 20:15

Bart wrote:Explaining everything with science will leave a lot of answers unaswered just because we have not developed the right meausring device.
So until someone smart comes up with the right measuring devices, the rest of us should fill the void with absurdities? Instead, why don't we just admit that there are things we don't know and work hard as a species to find out the truth? Seems more rewarding than just making stuff up because the unknown scares us.
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