....So much Cargo?....

A forum for the discussion of heuristic questions relating to Druidry using verifiable methods. Fo-fúair!
Life is short, the art long, opportunity fleeting, experiment treacherous, judgment difficult. — Hippocrates

Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.

This is a public forum, viewable by guests as well as members, and is cataloged by most search engines.
Forum rules
If you find a topic of interest and want to continue the discussion then start a new topic under The Hearthfire with a similar name and add a link back to the topic you want to continue.
User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 21 Jan 2011, 18:31

I was watching a National Geographic movie this morning and they had a question that struck me.... "Why you Europeans have so much cargo and we New Guineans have so little?" New Guineans use the word "cargo" for material possessions and the power they represent.

I am looking at my Pagan Community in new terms now....
... how much does the possession of material things influence how other pagans few their fellow pagans around the ritual fire pit?...

How much reverence do we give others because of what they wear or what they possess?

The movie is called "Guns, Germs, and Steel" http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Natio ... _and_Steel
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 21 Jan 2011, 19:46

wolf560 wrote:How much reverence do we give others because of what they wear or what they possess?
I dunno, but pagans love their bling....shiny necklaces and rings and fancy chalaces and alter cloths...if you wanted to get into a religion for the shopping experience, I think "pagan" would be the way to go.
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 21 Jan 2011, 21:57

Oh yes, "Pagan Bling" says it so well in fact....

Some of us actually began wondering if it was an extension of the "Who's Wand is Bigger" phenomenon after awhile
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Corwen
Posts: 1660
Joined: 14 May 2008, 09:46
Gender: Male
Location: East Dorset
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Corwen » 22 Jan 2011, 00:20

DJ Droood wrote:
wolf560 wrote:How much reverence do we give others because of what they wear or what they possess?
I dunno, but pagans love their bling....shiny necklaces and rings and fancy chalaces and alter cloths...if you wanted to get into a religion for the shopping experience, I think "pagan" would be the way to go.
Actually go to Lourdes or Santiago, the Catholics can give us a run for our money as far as bling goes- glow in the dark Saint James anyone? Or how about the holy Virgin in a snowstorm?

Sometimes I envy people who live in houses and have lots of stuff, especially when its been raining for a fortnight and I have to go outside and chop wood, but then again I feel very free not having bricks and mortar and the low outgoings certainly helps when you are trying to live a creative life! People are often trapped by their possessions as much as enabled by them. Enabling things, tools, space, instruments, these are good, but if something is useless or purely decorative I don't have much time for it. I think it was Thoreau who said every unnecessary possession is a limitation on my freedom.

Peter Menzel did a book of postcards called People and their Possessions, some of which seems to have been reprinted as Material World (http://www.amazon.com/Material-World-Gl ... 762&sr=8-1), there are beautifulo pictures of people from around the world and all their worldy goods. Some people just have a few bags of rice and a cooking pot, almost everyone- except interestingly the most western, have a musical instrument of some sort. To some people their livestock are their prize possessions and they proudly display their chickens, to the Arabs it is the carpets and tents they choose to put in the front, the Westerners tend to have a TV in prize of place :cry: Interesting book.

I just bumped the thread about small scale and low impact living which has some good links:
http://druidry.org/board/dhp/viewtopic. ... 78#p403278
My Homepage, music, instrument making, articles, pilgrimage and more! http://www.ancientmusic.co.uk
My Blog: http://www.katecorwen.wordpress.com
My Twitter Account: https://twitter.com/KATEandCORWEN
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kate-Cor ... 840?ref=hl

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 05:20

LOL

So we're as bad as any large group of Catholics huh?
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Heddwen
OBOD Druid
Posts: 4626
Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:06
Gender: Female
Location: West Wales
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Heddwen » 22 Jan 2011, 14:57

Lol, I'm not as sure if we in the Catholic league for bling just yet. However there seems to be a direct connection between a large amount of black eyeliner worn with big jewellry and a lack of being able to come up with the goods in circle. In some ways this amounts to a spiritual form of brewers droop....it looks promising but fails to live up to all expections...on every level.

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 22 Jan 2011, 21:25

I have actually had quite a few Catholic friends that speak very well of my faith and belief system. They do stop short of telling me about Heaven and Hell but they say that I have improved their feelings towards Paganry in general and Druidry specifically.

I tell all my friends "My Catholic buddies are the closest thing to Pagans I can imagine"

LOL
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Frog
OBOD Druid
Posts: 977
Joined: 02 Oct 2006, 12:04
Gender: Male
Location: outside Ilminster, Somerset, UK
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Frog » 24 Jan 2011, 09:51

DJ Droood wrote:
wolf560 wrote:How much reverence do we give others because of what they wear or what they possess?
I dunno, but pagans love their bling....shiny necklaces and rings and fancy chalaces and alter cloths...if you wanted to get into a religion for the shopping experience, I think "pagan" would be the way to go.
It's certainly food for thought. But I find it interesting to think "why". I wonder if the jewellery is because it is now accepted - almost fashionable - to have a belief in something that isn't considered mainstream and to some extent if you wear something for any period of time it feels odd to not have it about you. I also wonder how many people came to Wicca/witchcraft/druidry through an interest in things "gothic".

I think the altars and chalices stem simply from the fact that there are a lot of people who's altars are in their homes, rather than in some purpose-built brick edifice; although there is a shop near to me with stacks of representations of Indian gods that people can put in their homes.


In regard for the "cargo" - I do readily accept that I do have a lot of "things" around this house. Sometimes I do wonder if I have too much, but then something comes up and I realise that I have that to hand - whether it's a book on calculating Naismith's rule, or how to tie a specific knot, or even a book of inspirational thoughts to prompt a blog.
"Don't look to the end of the rainbow for the pot of gold; it's already under your feet"
Enjoy this life. It would be a shame if we looked forward to the next, only to find we forgot the one before.

Image ImageImage
ImageI08; 2010 BS, SB; 2011 IL; 2011 BS
ImageSpeakers Corner, 2011

My spiritual blog: http://theblackcrane.wordpress.com
Bardic Inspirations (Stories/rambles): http://frog101.wordpress.com

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 12:08

Frog wrote:It's certainly food for thought. But I find it interesting to think "why". I wonder if the jewellery is because it is now accepted - almost fashionable - to have a belief in something that isn't considered mainstream and to some extent if you wear something for any period of time it feels odd to not have it about you. I also wonder how many people came to Wicca/witchcraft/druidry through an interest in things "gothic".
I think some people, especially when they are younger, come to paganism searching for something to shore up their identity, and when they find Wicca or what have you, they become WICCAN and they want the whole world to know...I shouldn't pick on young people, though....I've seen plenty of middle-aged
Lady Raven Crow Wolf Owl's out there who not only have the bling, but also several bumper stickers on the Yaris so everyone knows exactly what their spiritual beliefs are (as well as who they vote for and their sexual and dietary preferences...some people don't need Facebook to share their personal story.)

sort of reminds me of the old Sunday school song they had us sing.
And they'll know we are Christians
By our clothes, By our clothes
Yes, they'll know we are Christians
By our clothes
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
Badger Bob
OBOD Druid
Posts: 1322
Joined: 27 Jun 2003, 20:17
Gender: Male
Location: The Glorious Peak District of England
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Badger Bob » 24 Jan 2011, 12:43

I think a lot of our current climate of over-consumption comes from our skewed way of working out a hierarchy. I was passed over for promotion a couple of years ago and went to my manager to enquire why. He told me it was because I don't play the game, I have no car, only rent a small flat, don't play golf or go on expensive holidays in short those who do play the game have no way of measuring their worth against me so I am judged to be worthless. I am not in debt either so the company cannot hold me to ransom as easily as someone in negative equity with out of control credit card bills. I have no social standing so the have no way of determining my place in the company. My managers advice was to take up golf, buy a car and try to keep up with the other managers, "be one of the team". I refused and left the company at the next opportunity to work for myself.

The village where I grew up had a hierarchy based on knowledge, the top of the pile were the people who knew things rather than people who posessed things. Mother Cresswell, who could tell you anything about anything was given the same deference as the local doctor or teacher. The incomers who took over rows of pit cottages and knew nothing about anything outside of London were given very little respect at all despite their ostentatious wealth, which led to some pretty funny confrontations between them and us. I think this was probably closer to the kind of society prevalent in New Guinea but with more turnips.

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 13:44

Badger Bob wrote:I think a lot of our current climate of over-consumption comes from our skewed way of working out a hierarchy.
That is an interesting observation....perhaps a collection of material goods replaces conventional "status"? And in a sub-culture like paganism, which may attract people who are somewhat disenfranchised, or lack conventional status, symbols of accomplishment and rank in the sub-culture may take on added importance.
My managers advice was to take up golf
indeed....it does seem important to play that stupid, boring, polluting, prime real estate gobbling game if you want to appear "normal."
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
Serpentia
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 460
Joined: 06 Sep 2008, 16:27
Gender: Female
Location: Nidderau, Germany
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Serpentia » 24 Jan 2011, 14:14

Well now.. I'm not going to sell my house, but I have on occassion felt "naked" when in a pagan crowd for lack of shiny baubles and pentagrams and crystals and what not's to wear around my neck or assorted other places on my body... :huh: There's a certain amount of pressure to "keep up with the Lady Raven Crow Wolf Owl's" out there and it can be hard on a middle-aged pagan who's seen the neopagan movement grow since the early 80's to look straight into their eyes, heave a deep sigh and say "yes, my dear, it looks great on you"..

Interesting that this also happens to men, I would've thought this was mainly another one of those "female things"....

Serpentia
the girl with the one ring on her finger
Facilitator of www.druidryonline.de, the NEW German Druid Community on the web

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 14:21

Serpentia wrote:Well now.. I'm not going to sell my house, but I have on occassion felt "naked" when in a pagan crowd for lack of shiny baubles and pentagrams and crystals and what not's to wear around my neck or assorted other places on my body... :huh: There's a certain amount of pressure to "keep up with the Lady Raven Crow Wolf Owl's" out there and it can be hard on a middle-aged pagan who's seen the neopagan movement grow since the early 80's to look straight into their eyes, heave a deep sigh and say "yes, my dear, it looks great on you"..

Interesting that this also happens to men, I would've thought this was mainly another one of those "female things"....

Serpentia
the girl with the one ring on her finger

Maybe it is an introvert/extrovert thing...."back in the day" I was quite interested in the punk rock scene, and loved going to see shows and the vibe of the people in that sub-culture, but I could never bring myself to wear the purple mohawk, eye-liner, spiked dog-collar and ratty jacket with GBH sprayed on the back....I looked like a sociology student auditing the sub-culture...I knew how to pogo, though....Oi!
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

Bartholomew

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Bartholomew » 24 Jan 2011, 16:23

Venturing in to dangerous waters again.
What struck me about Catholics and still does because I had never set foot in a Catholic Church until 2004 when I was 40 years old was the veneration of the statues. People going up to statues and kissing them and stroking them. I thought what's going on. You can tell Christians by the way they dress, the women wear long floral skirts and sensible shoes and look like they have been sucking a lemon and the men, christmas type jumpers and brogues. Except for me, I wear what people give me so look like a rag taggle bag of shite unless I am in therapists uniform. Tell a lie, I did get a nice cardy and a pair of trainers in the January sales.
I rent a house which I may well be evicted from if I don't catch up with the rent, I do drive a twenty year old car, mainly for work. I have no jewellry now, not that I was ever really into jewellry anyway, it's all been pawned ,my wedding ring and stuff, gone. I wear a blue opal ring on my wedding ring finger that my sister bought for me for my 40th birthday.
I've got a good selection of books that I don't part with, no ornaments, but I do have the black eyeliner and a big bag of make-up to make me look more acceptable in public.

User avatar
Heddwen
OBOD Druid
Posts: 4626
Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:06
Gender: Female
Location: West Wales
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Heddwen » 24 Jan 2011, 16:50

Actually, I'm quite a big fan of black eyeliner myself :grin:

User avatar
DaRC
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 5170
Joined: 06 Feb 2003, 17:13
Gender: Male
Location: Sussex
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DaRC » 24 Jan 2011, 17:22

An interesting discussion - I've always had a strong minimalist side it's what attracted me to single speed bicycles aka "more gears than ears". I always liked the concept of YAGNI... You Ain't Gonna Need It. Bike trips out into the wilds when you have to carry everything you need are great at focussing the mind on carrying a minimal amount of cargo.
I must admit to a weakness for bicycles tho' as apparently the amount of bikes I need is the number of bikes I have + 1 :oops:

I've always struggled with the 'bling' side of paganism - wandering around Glastonbury has always been funny. I'm the pagan who's more interested in walking up the Tor whilst my wife (the atheist) and the kids (of no fixed religion if any at all) are all pawing the shiny athame's, sparkly crystals and new age blingn although it's been suggested that I just don't like shopping and am a GOG (grumpy old git).

I suspect that those people who are attracted to high ritual would be attracted to high church Protestantism / Catholicism or the Ceremonial Magic side of paganism whilst those people who are attracted to simple spirituality would head towards low church Protestantism or a much more simplistic paganism. I suppose I was brought up with strong links back to the British-Celtic (Cornish & Welsh) Methodist communities and thus low church Protestantism. I favour a Druidry with a very low level of bling.

BB I was in a discussion recently with regards to value systems - those who favour a materialistic value system new 4x4 SUV cars, expensive holidays and large houses are at conflict with those who favour an experiential value system. I would suggest you favour an experiential value system.

:old: P.S. I came from a proto-Gothic time (well in the modern pop sense) when black eye liner, jeans and long coats was much rarer amongst the audience of a Bauhaus / Sisters of Mercy / Mission concert.
Most dear is fire to the sons of men,
most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
and to live a life without shame. (Havamal 68)
http://gewessiman.blogspot.co.uk Image

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 17:33

Heddwen wrote:Actually, I'm quite a big fan of black eyeliner myself :grin:
Huge fan...just not on me! (well, maybe in special occasions)
DaRC wrote: :old: P.S. I came from a proto-Gothic time (well in the modern pop sense) when black eye liner, jeans and long coats was much rarer amongst the audience of a Bauhaus / Sisters of Mercy / Mission concert.
Is Béla Lugosi still dead?
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
skh
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 1335
Joined: 01 Sep 2004, 20:06
Gender: Female
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by skh » 24 Jan 2011, 20:37

Is there a reason this is being discussed in "Skeptical Druid"? :)

peace /|\
Sonja

(Slowly reducing clutter, selling and giving away many books at the moment. No bling.)
I don't think anybody ever died thinking they loved people too much, or had too much joy, or made too much music.

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Explorer » 24 Jan 2011, 21:20

Interestng subject...

I'm fighting a bit of a battle against the related consumer attitude within our OBOD community.
It started when I had to pay 225 euro for a single 'spiritual OBOD weekend', which for the two of us amounted to 450 euro's, for one weekend of meditating and shaking hands with 'real druids' from the UK. Totally insane and we simply couldn't afford that.

This pissed me off so much that I not only refused the discount to a 'mere' 175 euro a person (because we are musicians in the eistedfodd), but we decided to boycot those weekends. Even if they would be half the price. Everything above 50 euro a person a day is unacceptable for me, and as far as I'm concerened it should be a lot less than that.
My goal is to do it for free, or paying in natura. And it can be, but it means that people have to get off their lazy behinds and help out, instead of just buying and consuming 'spirituality'.

The organizers listened though, for a moment. The next 'bardic day' they organized was for 10 euro's, including entertainment, workshops and drinks. Bravo!!! Big applause for them. But the next invitation came soon after, 175 euro for the next OBOD Weekend
:gloomy:.

So, for now my attention is on the International Dryade Camp. They still manage it for 35 euro a person a day, camping and self-catering, which is acceptable. But most importantly, they recognize this problem and draw a line.
So that is where our efford goes also. We refuse the offered payments and fees for our workshops, rituals and musical performances. Money never exchanged hands in our group anyway. We hope to set an example.
Druidry as a nature spirituality should be as free as the sun and the wind in my opinion.

But it is a bit hard rowing against that stream, because the big OBOD people like Philip and Damh set another example. They sell their books and music, fly over the world into camps, expenses paid by members. The americans even flew in Susan over the Atlantic to talk about nature spirituality I believe. It is all great for them, and I understand that some folks want to pay money to see their hero's, but for me it doesn't really radiate 'nature spirituality'.

Practically speaking. Without money not much happens, even in our druid community, I also recognize that. But at least I hope we can strive to keep it to a minimum, just to cover the real costs.

As for the bling. Well, you can guess how I feel about that.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 24 Jan 2011, 22:29

re: the flying, I suppose it is the lesser of evils to fly the handful of cult leaders....err...head druids....around to various camps and give them some face time then for plane loads of followers to fly to the UK....
Nico wrote:As for the bling. Well, you can guess how I feel about that.
You aren't going to talk about your pierced nipples, are you?
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

Locked

Return to “The Skeptical Druid”