....So much Cargo?....

A forum for the discussion of heuristic questions relating to Druidry using verifiable methods. Fo-fúair!
Life is short, the art long, opportunity fleeting, experiment treacherous, judgment difficult. — Hippocrates

Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.

This is a public forum, viewable by guests as well as members, and is cataloged by most search engines.
Forum rules
If you find a topic of interest and want to continue the discussion then start a new topic under The Hearthfire with a similar name and add a link back to the topic you want to continue.
User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 25 Jan 2011, 01:37

skh wrote:Is there a reason this is being discussed in "Skeptical Druid"? :)
(Slowly reducing clutter, selling and giving away many books at the moment. No bling.)
For all of the different aspects of things, I thought that this subject was actually perfect for a bunch of Druids who like to be skeptical about things in general.

Here is the skeptical part; Some Pagans (not all, but a few anyway) run around with a lot of "Cargo" ('bling' jewelry, five different wands, etc.) while others are quite content to wear just a few things and relax by the Baelfire with a wooden cup of mead.
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

Affirmation

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Affirmation » 25 Jan 2011, 02:15

Hello all
I have over the past couple years gone from a super consumer to a simpler"just what I need" kind of life.. All of this is a very strange sensation.. It always felt wrong having so much stuff.. Yet it is hard to get rid of it.. I guess it all comes with the new spirituality.. I do not have Bling.. But I do own alot of things.. I am taking steps to simplify my life and be less materialistic.. (I did not buy any christmas presents this year).. Now its time to sell a few cars..lol.

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 02:24

wolf560 wrote:Here is the skeptical part; Some Pagans (not all, but a few anyway) run around with a lot of "Cargo" ('bling' jewelry, five different wands, etc.) while others are quite content to wear just a few things and relax by the Baelfire with a wooden cup of mead.
For some reason, many of us try to find something that is unique, different and perhaps just a little bit better in the pagan subculture, but you really have to squint sometimes...there are flashy pagans and flashy Christians, minimalist Hindus, and back to basics pagans...etc etc....I really think Paganity is a reflection of the rest of society more than we are comfortable to admit...lefties and righties, pacifists and "Celtic warriors", greedy and selfless, brave and craven...I don't even think pagans can lay any particular claim to being more "earth friendly" than any other group or society at large. I'd like to think we are more accepting of others, but I've seen no evidence of more diversity at a pagan gathering than most churches I've sat in....perhaps a bit more queer-friendly (which is a big plus in the gay hatefest that is mainstream religion), and we tend to tuck more often to the left,...but really...should we be surprised when we act/dress/think/shop like the rest of our culture?
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 25 Jan 2011, 04:38

DJ Droood wrote:
wolf560 wrote:Here is the skeptical part; Some Pagans (not all, but a few anyway) run around with a lot of "Cargo".
For some reason, many of us try to find something that is unique,but really...should we be surprised when we act/dress/think/shop like the rest of our culture?
Please don't misunderstand me... I am not trying to insult anyone here.

I have seen (essentially) three types when it comes to "Cargo people";
1. They wear it all because they like to show off the fact that they are what they are.
2. They wear it all because they want to "scare" the people who aren't who they are.
3. They wear it all because they believe what they wear has 'power' in and of itself.

Notice I am not saying 'Pagan', 'Christian', or anything for that matter :grin: :grin:


Number three actually brings another question to mind;
Necklaces and Rings are tools that;
1. Have latent energies that anyone can tap into and utilize.
2. Store energies that may or may not assist the wearer
3. Act as a focus for energies for those adept enough to use them
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 04:58

wolf560 wrote:Please don't misunderstand me... I am not trying to insult anyone here.
I don't think "cargo" is necessarily a bad thing...it doesn't have to go hand in hand with the sin of consumerism, which we all commit from time to time....many folks are crafty and make thier own gear...and some people are just peacocks and like to strut....no harm there...we aren't Calvinists....
3. They wear it all because they believe what they wear has 'power' in and of itself.
wedding rings, momentos of places visited, experiences gained...pretty universal stuff...

Number three actually brings another question to mind;
Necklaces and Rings are tools that;
1. Have latent energies that anyone can tap into and utilize.
2. Store energies that may or may not assist the wearer
3. Act as a focus for energies for those adept enough to use them
You see, SKH...wolf knew what he was doing all along, introducing this in Skeptical Druids!

Where is that fine line between sentimental and mental? (says DJ, fingering his Celtic neck lozenge)
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
wolf560
Posts: 786
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 23:06
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona, USA
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by wolf560 » 25 Jan 2011, 05:09

LOL..!!!

It is my personal belief (subject to a bit of skepticism) that such jewelry can act as any one or more of those things and I wear what I wear for most of those reasons.

I wonder how many others wear them for any of the three things I mentioned?
.
The Druids wrote nothing down, and memorized everything...
/|\ Mark /|\

Image Image
2011 BS
Speakers Corner (Sep 2011) A lesson in the Ogham
Divination method; The Awen Stones

Guild Chief; ADF Scholars Guild, Scribe GotRP ADF, Bandarach Council member, NOD Council member


ImageImageImageImage

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Explorer » 25 Jan 2011, 07:22

DJ Droood wrote:re: the flying, I suppose it is the lesser of evils to fly the handful of cult leaders....err...head druids....around to various camps and give them some face time then for plane loads of followers to fly to the UK....
You have a point from a popular ecological point of view, but that is not what I meant.
(I'm not a 'good druid' in that sense anyway, I believe that CO2 is good for trees :whistle:).

What I mean is that some folks just don't have money, they will never fly over to a camp abroad anyway. And that is okay if there is a local cheap alternative.
But if we fly in expensive figure heads into our local camps, then the alternative gets too expensive also.

But to be honest, I don't think that accounts to the bulk of the costs, it is just something that is very visible and gives off the wrong signal.
Most of the money goes to too expensive facilities. Our organizers seem to think that druids need expensive spiritual resorts to be efficiently enlighted, while I think that they only need a field to pitch their tent and cook their own food.

I'm paying my way to Glastonbury also, it is a pleasant luxery that I can afford once a year or so.
But my local gatherings should be very cheap, or free, also because I want to pretend that I'm into nature spirituality instead of spiritual consumerism.
DJ Droood wrote: You aren't going to talk about your pierced nipples, are you?
wow, that remark brings back some memories of my first time in Glastonbury.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
eilis
OBOD Druid
Posts: 182
Joined: 05 Feb 2008, 01:49
Gender: Female
Location: http://www.wpaction.org
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by eilis » 25 Jan 2011, 07:53

I actually lived in New Guinea for 4 years, married a New Guinean, and my daughter is half New Guinean. What you bring up here is very interesting. Before contact, New Guineans did not feel poor. In fact poverty only exists if wealth exists. If there is no wealth, there is not poverty.

The other thing this brings to mind for me is that "wealth" items, "Bling" is something that is manufactured by human brings. When in fact the greatest wealth is nature. We tear down mountains to get the tiny bits of gold inside of mountains when in fact the natural beauty of the mountains is beyond the value of any gold we might find inside the mountain.

Look what they have done in New Guinea! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4836164.stm West Papua, which is the western half of the New Guinea island, is being raped for its resources - especially gold. The largest gold mine in the world is in New Guinea. They have spent 40 years trying to kill off the indigenous people so that they can take the land and do this to it: http://faculty.kutztown.edu/friehauf/in ... sberg.html They are stripping the rain forest too.

Please visit http://www.wpaction.org for links to many solidarity organizations all over the world. Also, http://www.freewestpapua.org in the UK
Eilis Rothai

"Never underestimate the power of a small group of committed citizens to change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
Image...Image...Image

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Explorer » 25 Jan 2011, 08:02

And now I've got that out of the way :whistle: ...

I try to not have too much (physical) cargo, but that is because I like things light.
Not out of a higher principle, but I don't want to worry about expensive things that can be stolen or lost.
And I am just a bit too private to show the world who I am through jewelry, clothes or bumper stickers.

When I moved out of my apartement 3 years ago, I threw away half my stuff and the rest fit into a few boxes in a corner of the van (well, except for the bed and bookshelves). And most of that stuff was books, stones, sticks, hides, pieces of forest. And my guitar and camping gear.

On the other hand, I have travelled so much that I could have bought a house of what I have spend on that, and probably should plant a forest to compensate :innocent:. Now that money is gone, the cash flow has dried up a bit, but I have my experiences and memories.

I just like things that way, simple and controlled.
But a strange manifestation of that same idea is that so much of my life fits in a laptop, or on webspace, these days. All my digital images, music, movies, even my social life. And when I die, I will take my harddisk with me into my hill grave, and into the afterlife.
:warm:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
Explorer
OBOD Druid
Posts: 2511
Joined: 10 Jul 2004, 22:54
Gender: Male
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Explorer » 25 Jan 2011, 08:17

eilis wrote:I actually lived in New Guinea for 4 years, married a New Guinean, and my daughter is half New Guinean. What you bring up here is very interesting. Before contact, New Guineans did not feel poor. In fact poverty only exists if wealth exists. If there is no wealth, there is not poverty.

The other thing this brings to mind for me is that "wealth" items, "Bling" is something that is manufactured by human brings. When in fact the greatest wealth is nature. We tear down mountains to get the tiny bits of gold inside of mountains when in fact the natural beauty of the mountains is beyond the value of any gold we might find inside the mountain.
I totally agree with this.

I'm currently watching a series about the 'wild west', and one line stuck. A Lakota man saying "Those are the mountains where the white man digs up the yellow stone (gold) that makes them crazy". It is as simple as that isn't it?
And I had hoped that this awareness is what druidry would bring.

Mmm... I wonder... perhaps I should do something with that. Something 'uncomfortable'.
Like organizing a ritual, and when people come, ask them to drop all the artificial stuff and 'bling' in a plastic bag.
All cell phones, jewelry, gadgets, wallets.

And not simply in their own private plastic bag, but in my dirty old grocery bag, all together. And then we'll bury it out of sight, unguarded, for the duration of the ritual. I wonder how much discomfort that would give, and how much confusion in sorting out what stuff is who's afterward.
But primarily, how much awareness that would then give, and how much liberation.

:idea:
mmmmmm... I am in fact organizing a ritual for our next international camp... mmmmm.
And I am also in the eisteddfod with some songs... I could write a song and turn it into something similar
:grin:.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Image

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 12:30

I'm not a huge expert on ancient Celtic cultures, nor do I use them as a benchmark for my own behavior, but were they not sort of a "blingy" bunch? Neck torcs, pickled heads, purple pants, limed hair and all that?
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
Heddwen
OBOD Druid
Posts: 4510
Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:06
Gender: Female
Location: West Wales
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Heddwen » 25 Jan 2011, 12:33

Black eyeliner, bling and golf never did Alice Cooper any harm.

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 12:41

Heddwen wrote:Black eyeliner, bling and golf never did Alice Cooper any harm.
I'm not sure of that...do you know he is pretty far to the right, politically, and a born again? I had a friend in the concert biz...said he was a nice guy, but a typical grumpy old man about a lot of things....I blame the golf, mostly.
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
Heddwen
OBOD Druid
Posts: 4510
Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:06
Gender: Female
Location: West Wales
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Heddwen » 25 Jan 2011, 13:02

Crikey, DJ I had no idea. Yes , the golf is definately at fault. The spooky thing is tho, he looks like my Mum!

User avatar
DaRC
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 5119
Joined: 06 Feb 2003, 17:13
Gender: Male
Location: Sussex
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DaRC » 25 Jan 2011, 13:54

ancient Celtic cultures ... were they not sort of a "blingy" bunch? Neck torcs, pickled heads, purple pants, limed hair and all that?
Well yes the Celts did like their gold - but then gift giving had a lot more meaning to them as it was a contract between the giver and receiver - and they also liked to dress up for battle but it was more ecologically friendly than the Lorica Segmentata them Romans wore :-)

As to golf <shudder> I'd like to blame many of the worlds problems on it "a good walk ruined" as Mr Twain observed or green deserts as my mate Guy calls 'em.

The serious question, I suppose, is this - are many modern pagans just treating their spirituality as a cargo cult rather than finding a deeper understanding?

Finally I do believe Mr Lugosi is still parted from life, no more, deceased and probably rolling in his coffin at the likes of Twilight. :boggle:
Most dear is fire to the sons of men,
most sweet the sight of the sun;
good is health if one can but keep it,
and to live a life without shame. (Havamal 68)
http://gewessiman.blogspot.co.uk Image

User avatar
skydove
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 909
Joined: 22 May 2008, 19:04
Gender: Female
Location: Warwickshire
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by skydove » 25 Jan 2011, 14:31

Quote ''The serious question, I suppose, is this - are many modern pagans just treating their spirituality as a cargo cult rather than finding a deeper understanding?'

How on earth can you judge that?
It is hard enough to understand why we ourselves do anything than make judgements on other people for what they do/ how they dress / what they buy/ how or if they decorate their homes or how they practice their spirituality.

Is it not a load of 'looking down ones nose' at those less enlightened beings who don't do things our way?
Should we judge the people for making those type of judgements then?
Stop the hamster wheel I want to get off :duck:
Image 2010 SB Image2011 LI Image Image2011 SB
'much of what she heard from the trees was her own self echoed back'
http://www.suerodger.moonfruit.com/.
December 2013 Seminar - Mask Making with Plaster Bandages

Image

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 15:18

If there is an inverse relationship between cargo and spirituality, the Vatican is the least spiritual place I've ever seen....oh wait.....
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
skh
OBOD Ovate
Posts: 1335
Joined: 01 Sep 2004, 20:06
Gender: Female
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by skh » 25 Jan 2011, 15:56

You mean there's no difference between acquiring items to (supposedly) feel superior in some way and getting rid of items to (supposedly) feel superior in some way? ;)

I think speculating why people do what they do is unscientific.

Natural sciences would test the bling if it has any effects in the observable world, social sciences would probably start with a survey and just ask people why they have it (not whether it works). Judgment isn't part of either.

peace /|\
Sonja
I don't think anybody ever died thinking they loved people too much, or had too much joy, or made too much music.

User avatar
DJ Droood
OBOD Druid
Posts: 5558
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 18:52
Gender: Male
Location: North Eastern North America
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by DJ Droood » 25 Jan 2011, 16:04

skh wrote:Natural sciences would test the bling if it has any effects in the observable world, social sciences would probably start with a survey and just ask people why they have it (not whether it works). Judgment isn't part of either.
It would be a simple experiment....collect people's bling (perhaps using one of those mobile storage containers) and weigh it, then weigh their souls...see if there is a correlation....

Talking about storage, is that not one of the signs of the End Times? (or Start Times, as a friend calls it) all those storage places popping up...people have so much junk they need more than their 3500 square foot homes and two car garages to store it all....can't we just give it back to the Chinese?
Image
2010 LI
2011 LI
2013 BS
Image
12/10-Ancestors
"If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."
Kerry Thornley

User avatar
Heddwen
OBOD Druid
Posts: 4510
Joined: 26 Sep 2007, 16:06
Gender: Female
Location: West Wales
Contact:

Re: ....So much Cargo?....

Post by Heddwen » 25 Jan 2011, 16:48

skydove wrote:Quote ''The serious question, I suppose, is this - are many modern pagans just treating their spirituality as a cargo cult rather than finding a deeper understanding?'

How on earth can you judge that?
It is hard enough to understand why we ourselves do anything than make judgements on other people for what they do/ how they dress / what they buy/ how or if they decorate their homes or how they practice their spirituality.

Is it not a load of 'looking down ones nose' at those less enlightened beings who don't do things our way?
Should we judge the people for making those type of judgements then?
Stop the hamster wheel I want to get off :duck:
Hello Skydove (lovely name) I can see your point totally. Finger pointing at blingdruids is probably a waste of energy. I have now downsized I wear celtic (not pagan) jewellry I used to build large extravagant altars but now am happy with a stone, a feather, a candle and a glass of water. I don't mind what they wear but I do get fed up with the banter in some situations i.e. being 'taught' or told the bleeding obvious! You only need to walk down Glastonbury High Street on a weekend near to the 8 festivals to see the blingfest, this coupled with the blatant spiritual over commercialism in the town makes me sad.Selling twigs as fairy broomsticks, any takers? I think we can only judge ourselves at the end of the day, if we feel judged this is another issue, again if we are strong in our path the feelings of others should not affect us. :)

Locked

Return to “The Skeptical Druid”