A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by DJ Droood » 06 Apr 2011, 22:16

skh wrote:Well, then, go and text the mission statement (preferably one that's clear, easy to understand by innocent bystanders, and assumes no previous knowledge of you, any other of the Skeptics, or the history of this message board).
I would rather just complain and point out the obvious.

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Explorer » 07 Apr 2011, 07:16

merryb wrote:Respect for each others beliefs would be good thing..
I don't agree with that.
Spreading stupidity and falsehood should be punished with tar and feathers here in 'Skeptical Druidry', not encouraged.
This forum is an arena where we first seek truth, and then find meaning in it. And not a pink cloud where truth is sacrificed because every uneducated opinion should be regarded as equal and valid. I don't mind a bit Shock and Awe here, it might even teach people that they are responsible for the things they spread into the world.

Say, DJ and Lily, perhaps the mission statement could be "welcome to fluffy hippy hell", and we are its demons. :grin:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by merryb » 07 Apr 2011, 10:01

I'll rember to stay clear of all you skeptical Druids in future. Does Strugeons law apply to your views and opinions as well -
yah
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Ghostrider » 07 Apr 2011, 10:04

Lily wrote:Merry,
no offense meant - but this thread shows that backed by research, it does NOT work.
No it doesn't.
It proves that a person undergoing Reiki or mimic-Reiki DOES benefit if the subject RECEIVING believes they will benefit. After all, the only group NOT getting 'better' was the group that did not receive anything at all.

Now, what makes a 'good' practisioner, shaman, reiki-master, guru, whathaveyou, is someone that is able to make the patient BELIEVE and produce a benefitial result.
Problem with that is, there's also plenty of people around that are very good in making people believe they will get better from just paying 29,99 an hour :grin: Heck.. some are even good enough to make you MARRY them! :-)

The research does not show if humans have an inherent 'power' that enables them to 'heal'. It just proves that waving your hands over someone else makes them feel better. Whether or not it 'helps' if you call yourself a Reiki-master is another thing altogether. But that applies to some fields of Druidry as well. :innocent:

I guess what the research proves to ME is not that undergoing Reiki is a waste of money... But taking classes to become a Reiki-master just might be :grin:

Muddy waters indeed.
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by merryb » 07 Apr 2011, 10:17

I will rember to steer clear of this forum in future. Does Strugeon's Law apply to your opinions and beliefs -Yah
Merryb

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Explorer » 07 Apr 2011, 10:20

Ghostrider wrote:
Lily wrote:Merry,
no offense meant - but this thread shows that backed by research, it does NOT work.
No it doesn't.
It proves that a person undergoing Reiki or mimic-Reiki DOES benefit if the subject RECEIVING believes they will benefit. After all, the only group NOT getting 'better' was the group that did not receive anything at all.

Now, what makes a 'good' practisioner, shaman, reiki-master, guru, whathaveyou, is someone that is able to make the patient BELIEVE and produce a benefitial result.
Problem with that is, there's also plenty of people around that are very good in making people believe they will get better from just paying 29,99 an hour :grin: Heck.. some are even good enough to make you MARRY them! :-)

The research does not show if humans have an inherent 'power' that enables them to 'heal'. It just proves that waving your hands over someone else makes them feel better. Whether or not it 'helps' if you call yourself a Reiki-master is another thing altogether. But that applies to some fields of Druidry as well. :innocent:

I guess what the research proves to ME is not that undergoing Reiki is a waste of money... But taking classes to become a Reiki-master just might be :grin:

Muddy waters indeed.
I agree.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Dendrias » 07 Apr 2011, 10:21

Lily's paper revised wrote:In conclusion, Reiki is as effective as mimic-Reiki...
How would you be able to prove the ineffectiveness of reiki, then
if the effectiveness can't be disproved
by scientifically showing it's effectiveness?

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Explorer » 07 Apr 2011, 10:22

merryb wrote:I'll rember to stay clear of all you skeptical Druids in future. Does Strugeons law apply to your views and opinions as well -
yah
Merryb.
Ofcourse it does.
Which why in this forum we hammer on facts, evidence and proof. Instead of views and opinions.
Do you know the difference?
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Ghostrider » 07 Apr 2011, 10:30

Nico wrote:
merryb wrote:I'll rember to stay clear of all you skeptical Druids in future. Does Strugeons law apply to your views and opinions as well -
yah
Merryb.
Ofcourse it does.
Which why in this forum we hammer on facts, evidence and proof. Instead of views and opinions.
Do you know the difference?
Ah, but... if you go LOOKING for facts, evidence and proof, chances are that, somewhere, you will find it.
If you believe in 'stuff' (fill in what aplies, including science), there's a good chance you will find 'things' to confirm your opinion / view. However, that does not make it 'true' ( here we go again, :-) ).
There are many cases of 'proof' being taught to people as 'truth', whilst they have been proven wrong allready. Sort of a 'history is written by the victorious party'-kind of thing..

I've said it once and I'll keep on saying it... 'proof' is only 'true' until new 'proof' is discovered. Until that time, it's all: what do YOU believe? Views and opinions simply cannot be factored out. :old:

There.. that's my 90% of crap!
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by DJ Droood » 07 Apr 2011, 11:09

Nico wrote:Say, DJ and Lily, perhaps the mission statement could be "welcome to fluffy hippy hell", and we are its demons. :grin:
I think Lily already spelled things out pretty clearly in 2004...

"In this room, every controversial topic in any way related to druidry is fair game, as long as you remain rational. Less than rational interjections will be challenged ruthlessly :grin:"

I Don't think a bigger font or different colour will make any difference.
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Explorer » 07 Apr 2011, 12:09

DJ Droood wrote: I Don't think a bigger font or different colour will make any difference.
No, it won't.

There are 'Believers' and there are 'Truth Seekers'.

If you are a Truth Seeker then you fully accept that your beliefs can be wrong. And Gerrit is right, many scientific theories are also beliefs, backed up by (inconclusive) evidence. But in the 'truth finding' business it is usually considered a good thing if your beliefs are challenged and proven wrong, because it means that Truth wins.

If you are a Believer, then you believe, regardless of evidence, proof or truth.
If you are proven wrong, you just repeat your beliefs a little bit louder, or run away slamming the door, or blow some people up for the good cause.
And it doesn't make a real difference what to believe in, god, undetectable energies, that your husband cheats on you, it is all the same principle.

The dividing line does not run between religions, nor between religion/atheistm, nor druids/non-druids. Not even always between people, most of us have some of both. But when Believing sacrifies Truth, you have simply gone too far, imho.
In some cases 'Believing' is actually the best strategy, like in magical work, spiritual healing, mobilising people, motivating yourself to detonate your bombjacket. But it is a lousy quality to investigate Truth with.

OBOD training tries to trigger this awareness in people at some point. But I doubt its effectivity. I still have to see the first 'Believer' saying "ah, you are right, I was wrong".
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by DJ Droood » 07 Apr 2011, 12:53

I am agnostic about Reiki, personally. I've only had one actual experience with it...a friend is a practitioner of natural healing, and was studying some form of reiki...I forget which kind...it was touchless...and she needed test subjects and I volunteered. I lay on my back on a comfortable bed, with gentle New Age music playing and closed my eyes and for about 45 minutes she did something....not sure what, my eyes were closed and I may have fallen asleep....but it was *very* relaxing and soothing and I enjoyed it very much. I saw "colour clouds" of yellow and green when i was being worked on, which she noted in her journal. It was a lovely experience. Perhaps it is healing like a warm bath or watching a sunset on the beach is healing.
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Cosmic Ash » 07 Apr 2011, 20:45

Thank you Ghostrider, this is what I was thinking, but a little afraid to say... :oops:
Ghostrider wrote:
Lily wrote:Merry,
no offense meant - but this thread shows that backed by research, it does NOT work.
No it doesn't.
It proves that a person undergoing Reiki or mimic-Reiki DOES benefit if the subject RECEIVING believes they will benefit. After all, the only group NOT getting 'better' was the group that did not receive anything at all.

The research does not show if humans have an inherent 'power' that enables them to 'heal'. It just proves that waving your hands over someone else makes them feel better.

I guess what the research proves to ME is not that undergoing Reiki is a waste of money... But taking classes to become a Reiki-master just might be :grin:

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by cursuswalker » 08 Apr 2011, 12:35

Lily wrote:ta-daa, has been done:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/30/4/999.long
the whole paper can be read.
Excellent!
Painful Diabetic Neuropathy
Impact of an alternative approach

RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS—
A total of 207 subjects with type 2 diabetes and PDN were recruited.
The study design was a randomized, semidouble–blind, placebo-controlled, 12-week trial. Subjects were randomized into one of three treatment groups (Reiki, mimic Reiki, or usual care) in a 1:1:1 fashion. Mimic practitioners were actors trained to mimic Reiki practitioners in style of practice.

...

CONCLUSIONS—
Global pain scores and walking distance improved from baseline in both the Reiki and mimic-Reiki groups. However, there were no significant differences between groups at the final visit.
In conclusion, Reiki is no more effective than mimic-Reiki...
This is exactly what I would expect to be the result.
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by cursuswalker » 08 Apr 2011, 12:43

Ghostrider wrote:
Lily wrote:Merry,
no offense meant - but this thread shows that backed by research, it does NOT work.
No it doesn't.
It proves that a person undergoing Reiki or mimic-Reiki DOES benefit if the subject RECEIVING believes they will benefit. After all, the only group NOT getting 'better' was the group that did not receive anything at all.

Now, what makes a 'good' practisioner, shaman, reiki-master, guru, whathaveyou, is someone that is able to make the patient BELIEVE and produce a benefitial result.
Problem with that is, there's also plenty of people around that are very good in making people believe they will get better from just paying 29,99 an hour :grin: Heck.. some are even good enough to make you MARRY them! :-)

The research does not show if humans have an inherent 'power' that enables them to 'heal'. It just proves that waving your hands over someone else makes them feel better. Whether or not it 'helps' if you call yourself a Reiki-master is another thing altogether. But that applies to some fields of Druidry as well. :innocent:

I guess what the research proves to ME is not that undergoing Reiki is a waste of money... But taking classes to become a Reiki-master just might be :grin:

Muddy waters indeed.
But the whole point is that no treatment can claim credit for its placebo effect, as ALL treatments have one.

The study demonstrated that Reiki does not work, precisely because it performed no better than an actor. Simpy saying "oh well, it had an effect anyway" is irrelevant.

There is still no evidence that Reiki "works". Therefore all of its claims re. "energy" etc. are debunked until such time as new evidence comes along suggesting otherwise.

However I am glad this means that I can now set up as a Reiki practitioner without having to undergo any training, and will get away with it

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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Ghostrider » 08 Apr 2011, 14:58

*sigh* :roll:

Allright.. in that case.. expect my payments for YOUR Reiki to come out of the "90% crap" ...
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by cursuswalker » 08 Apr 2011, 18:56

If Reiki can still claim to be a treatment on this basis then doctors who give out unnecessary prescriptions can do the same :D
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Ghostrider » 08 Apr 2011, 19:13

cursuswalker wrote:If Reiki can still claim to be a treatment on this basis then doctors who give out unnecessary prescriptions can do the same :D
And you mean to say they DON'T? :-)
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by cursuswalker » 08 Apr 2011, 19:49

Ghostrider wrote:
cursuswalker wrote:If Reiki can still claim to be a treatment on this basis then doctors who give out unnecessary prescriptions can do the same :D
And you mean to say they DON'T? :-)
Perhaps I should have said LEGITIMATELY at the end :)
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Re: A rigourous test of the claims of Reiki

Post by Ghostrider » 08 Apr 2011, 20:57

Hahahaha! Damn those SCIENTIFICALLY educated doctors... :grin:


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