So, about 9/11....

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Aemilius
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 02:11

Well, the thread seems to have taken on a life of its own in spite of my having really withdrawn the question.... Hasn't it? So I'll have a response to all (in order of posting, might take an hour or seven).

I just thought that the most important thing, really, was to first acknowledge and thank you all (meant sincerely) for your various opinions, and the rationales accompanying them. You've all given me a great deal to think about.... and I'll consider my response carefully.

Strength to you all.... except maybe for that guy I've never spoken to or heard of before (to my knowledge anyway) that at least seemingly launched an entire thread against me exclusively for the purpose of accusing me of being a troll without providing any evidence of any kind to back it up or apollogizing one way or the other (without anyone even commenting on the fact that I hadn't yet said even one word about where I actually stood on the issue) who's apparently an OBOD member that actually had to be "guided" by Selene with regard to the proper procedure for objecting to a post for whatever reason even though the guy has over a thousand posts. What was I saying? Oh Yeah.... Strength to you all!
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Re: A Silly Question

Postby Mountain Lily » 07 Dec 2014, 02:25

Well, the thread seems to have taken on a life of its own in spite of my having really withdrawn the question.... Hasn't it? .

So, I'll have a response to all (in order of posting, might take an hour or seven).

I just really thought that the most important thing, really, was to first acknowledge and thank you all (meant sincerely) for your various opinions, and the rationales accompanying them, You've all given me a great deal to think about.... 'll consider my response carefully.

Strength to you all....
Y'know, I think you could skip replying, after all. Really.
SB2014
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 02:44

Y'know, I think you could skip replying, after all. Really.

Well, Y'know Mountain Lily, like I said somewhere before, I've had some very rewarding exchanges here.... I do not remember your name.
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Re: A Silly Question

Postby Mountain Lily » 07 Dec 2014, 03:21

I still have it; doesn't matter if you remember it or not! :grin:
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The true harvest of my daily life is somewhat as intangible and indescribable as the tints of morning or evening. It is a little star-dust caught, a segment of the rainbow which I have clutched. --Thoreau

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 03:27

I still have it; doesn't matter if you remember it or not! :grin:
You decide.... What good is a name remembered only by one?

Anyway, just a little, now apparently obsolete, ancient Druidic inspiration. A gift, really, to OBOD itself, from the heart of a salty old hard bitten sour dough two fisted Solitary....

AD 350 - Ammianus Marcellinus - "It was the custom of the Bards to celebrate the brave deeds of their famous men in epic verse accompanied by the sweet strains of the lyre, while the Euhages strove to explain the high mysteries of nature. Between them came the Druids, men of greater talent, members of the intimate fellowship of the Pythagoean faith; they were up-lifted by searchings into secret and sublime things, and with grand contempt for mortal lot they professed the immortality of the soul."

And....

AD 50 - Pomponius Mela - "They have, however, their own kind of eloquence, and teachers of wisdom called Druids. These profess to know the size and shape of the world, the movements of the heavens and of the stars.... and the will of the gods."
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Re: A Silly Question

Postby Mountain Lily » 07 Dec 2014, 04:25

Hurray! :yay: The troll doesn't remember me!
Life gets better and better. :)
SB2014
The true harvest of my daily life is somewhat as intangible and indescribable as the tints of morning or evening. It is a little star-dust caught, a segment of the rainbow which I have clutched. --Thoreau

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Re: A Silly Question

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 06:16

Hurray! :yay: The troll doesn't remember me!
Life gets better and better. :)
Thank you, Mountain Llly. As I said earlier, I'll have a response (in order) to all posts. I'll especially enjoy responding to yours (in a civil and friendly way of course).
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Re: A Silly Question

Postby ShadowCat » 07 Dec 2014, 08:05

Hurray! :yay: The troll doesn't remember me!
Life gets better and better. :)
Thank you, Mountain Llly. As I said earlier, I'll have a response (in order) to all posts. I'll especially enjoy responding to yours (in a civil annd friendly way of course).
Oooo the suspense... :wow:
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 08:38

Thank you, ShadowCat.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 07 Dec 2014, 08:56

Well, the thread seems to have taken on a life of its own in spite of my having really withdrawn the question.... Hasn't it? So I'll have a response to all (in order of posting, might take an hour or seven).
You planted a seed in soil that is not your own. So of course it has a life of its own. :grin:

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 09:28

Thank you, treegod.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Aemilius » 07 Dec 2014, 23:40

I looked at your blog and I think you chose the wrong audience.
Looks like you were right.
Your arguments depend heavily on concepts in civil and structural
engineering.
Where did you get that Idea? First, I don't have an argument (an analysis is not the same as an argument). Second, the analysis is built solely on the law of conservation of energy as applied to a falling object, not on concepts in civil and structural engineering at all.
The DHP is well-stocked with health care and social workers, foresters and conservationists, and the odd lawyer, librarian and information scientist, however, it is lacking in wearers of hard hats and users of theodolites who could engage you in informed and critical discussion.
It's not rocket science.... it's eighth grade physics.
Have you tried to discuss your ideas on a civil engineering forum?
I've explored it in several forums, mostly science forums, since it's a straightforward science question having to do with gravitational acceleration (free fall), and one doesn't need to be a structural engineer or a nuclear scientist to analyse a rock falling through the air.... or a building. The process of applying the law of conservation of energy to the analysis of a falling body is the same for a forty year veteren research physicist as it is for some kid in the eighth grade, and it's (the law of conservation of energy) predictions regarding falling bodies are the same for a building as they are for a rock.
I am highly unqualified to comment on any empirical way on the events or physics surrounding the events of 9/11 (and I suspect, i.e. opinion, the same may apply to everyone else or most people on this board).
And....
....this can only be a feeling and matter of opinion because I lack resources, scientific expertise and direct, empirical experience that would allow me to conduct such a large-scale investigation - like yourself?
A large-scale investigation? Anyone with an old laptop that made it through the eighth grade has all the resources necessary to analyse this, in fact, you don't even need that.... a rock (or a building) will only descend at gravitational acceleration if nothing is in the way as it falls, and it won't descend at gravitational acceleration if anything is in the way as it falls. It was actually a retired high school science teacher that corrected the NIST report during a question and answer session at some news conference by pointing out the gravitational acceleration of WTC7 using nothing more than a laptop and "off the shelf" software.... so I'm not buying the large-scale investigation thing.
Hurray! :yay: The troll doesn't remember me!
Life gets better and better. :)
So now a second OBOD member who I've never heard of or even spoken to (before now) is jumping up and down labelling me a troll with absolutely nothing to support it, just name calling.

That's fine, I've got your opinions.... Thanks. I'll just watch now to see if anyone actually addresses the analysis (doesn't seem likely). It's been around thirty posts now since I clarified that I was looking for facts that would support any of your opinions and break the analysis....
Sorry about the lack of clarity, but ike I said, I didn't think I needed to. If you need me to spell it out for you though I will right here, I'm asking for facts.... Got any that support your opinion?
So in nutshell, for a variety of reasons, you all appear to accept the official narative (to one degree or another), though no one can actually provide any facts in support of their acceptance, essentially just "believing" what the "experts" have said (to one degree or another). I bring you a fact that's been thoroughly gone over, and even illustrate the hilariously simple fundamental physical principle involved as it pertains to the building, along with a conclusion that logically conflicts with that "belief", but it turns out no one can even agree or disagree with it because no one (yet, maybe someone will come along) can even decipher the simple analysis I posted.... and that's where it (my impression so far) stands.

If anyone here really had any facts to support their opinion they would have presented them by now instead of resorting to name calling, derisive language and even starting a thread just to attack me with smear tactics.... revolting. Ultimately none of that really matters though, the analysis remains unbroken.

So you can all go ahead and launch a final salvo of opinions, name calling and personal attacks. It doesn't impact the analysis which is all I'm really interested in. Maybe nollaig would even like to start another maliciously false hit-and-run thread.

Hey DJ.... What happened to the other Lily? I was really looking forward to talking with her.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 08 Dec 2014, 02:06

At best, you're being disingenuous. The problem isn't about the kinetics of falling bodies, it's about how the bodies came to fall in the first place. It's about the structure, failure modes and the behavior of materials. Young's modulus matters a lot more than Newton's laws.

Anyway, what sort of responses did you get in those forums?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby DJ Droood » 08 Dec 2014, 02:07

Hey DJ.... What happened to the other Lily? I was really looking forward to talking with her.
Swiss scientist Lily with the beautiful mind? I don't know...I haven't seen her post in a long time. I'm sure her contributions to this thread would be incisive and thought-provoking.

I think the deployment of Ockham's Razor is perfectly legitimate from posters in this thread. "The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better."

Thermite in the rubble and 8th grade physics are fine, but I have yet to hear any explanation, put to me in 8th grade terms, that requires fewer assumptions or complicated solutions than the official report. I don't *need* to look at any more evidence. If a competing theory becomes, through its own merit, more widely held by pop culture science celebrities I respect like Neil Degrass Tyson, I am prepared to reconsider. I am not ideologically married to the official version.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 08 Dec 2014, 10:13

Where did you get that Idea? First, I don't have an argument (an analysis is not the same as an argument). Second, the analysis is built solely on the law of conservation of energy as applied to a falling object, not on concepts in civil and structural engineering at all.
So not a thorough analysis, which wouldn't help if the buidling were structured like an accordian, for example, with layers and weak supports between those layers. It wasn't not a solid block after all, and other principles may apply here.
....this can only be a feeling and matter of opinion because I lack resources, scientific expertise and direct, empirical experience that would allow me to conduct such a large-scale investigation - like yourself?
A large-scale investigation? Anyone with an old laptop that made it through the eighth grade has all the resources necessary to analyse this, in fact, you don't even need that.... a rock (or a building) will only descend at gravitational acceleration if nothing is in the way as it falls, and it won't descend at gravitational acceleration if anything is in the way as it falls. It was actually a retired high school science teacher that corrected the NIST report during a question and answer session at some news conference by pointing out the gravitational acceleration of WTC7 using nothing more than a laptop and "off the shelf" software.... so I'm not buying the large-scale investigation thing.
To investigate the basic physical principle you mention, of course, you just need a dusty old laptop. That's simple. But this involves more than a simple 8th grade science experiment, this involves thousands of victims and witnesses, tons of evidence to sort through (who's kept track of it all?), concepts from civil and structural engineering, knowledge of planes, aerodynamics and high-speed impacts, knowledge of explosives, investigation into how the explosives can be snuck into and hidden within the building - during or after its construction, and if there is any evidence to confirm this, etc.. I'm sure there's more stuff I could mention, but this is just from the top of my head.

Surely all this deserves consideration, too? Or does it just boil down to gravitational acceleration and the effect of obstructions?

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby DJ Droood » 08 Dec 2014, 12:56

I find a more intriguing aspect of 9/11 the Pentagon attack. WTC seems obviously to be plane hits, but I don't think I've seen a convincing image of plane wreckage in the Pentagon. I also don't buy the "Let's Roll!" hero narrative from the plane that went down in Pennsylvania....probably shot down by fighter jet....still just speculatin' here though!
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 08 Dec 2014, 14:27

What interests me more is the motives rather than the causes. Who would do it and why?
In terms of conspiracy I could believe that powerful people in the US could benefit from this and have a hand in orchestrating or inciting it. That's more plausible for me.

The Shock Doctrine is an interesting book: in the wake of social catastrophes and crises powerful people can insert themselves in the fog of confusion and desperation and get a profit/gain control/etc. I can't believe everything in it, but I think the basic premise works: use shock to get what you want.

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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby skepticskitchen » 08 Dec 2014, 14:29

I'm skeptical of the 9/11 Commission Report...but I'm equally as skeptical of all the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Regardless, I don't understand what 9/11 has to do with druidry?
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby Whitemane » 08 Dec 2014, 15:05

I'm skeptical of the 9/11 Commission Report...but I'm equally as skeptical of all the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Regardless, I don't understand what 9/11 has to do with druidry?
The main concern for Druidry would not be any mechanics and machinations, but the reaction against non-Christian belief systems, especially in the US.
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Re: So, about 9/11....

Postby treegod » 08 Dec 2014, 15:13

I'm skeptical of the 9/11 Commission Report...but I'm equally as skeptical of all the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Regardless, I don't understand what 9/11 has to do with druidry?
Yes, official reports and conspiracy theories should all be taken with a pinch of salt.

I feel that druidry is/should be relevant to world events, so as a druid I feel it is relevant to discuss it. This is also the skeptical section of the board to discuss anything we can apply skeptical thinking to. Good enough? :wink:


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