Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

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Gwilym Goch
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Postby Gwilym Goch » 17 Dec 2005, 13:47

OBOD study material? Not being a member means I don't have access to it, but it would be interesting to know where that particular reference came from, seeing as I'm studying early Welsh poetry. Could you find out for me?

Thanks

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Postby Unikorn » 17 Dec 2005, 22:34

i suggest you contact the office directly and ask them as they have the access to the material
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ap Iorwerth
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Welsh

Postby ap Iorwerth » 20 Dec 2005, 18:31

Rhobert ap Iorweth yma [here pronounced uma] here, croeso [welcome, pronounce croi so <smile>] The Welsh letter 'y' usually has the same sound as the letter 'u' in English as in words like 'such' and 'much'. But just to complicate matters <smile> the Welsh 'u' has a sound close to an long letter 'i' so Llanrug would be pronounced like Llanriig.
I'll try and deal with the double Ll [this is one letter in our language] but it will present difficulties as there is nothing in the International Phonetic System I can find that comes anywhere near it.
An English friend says that to get it right it helps if you have double pneumonia, a severe sore throat a slight lisp and are gargling a glass a water at the same time.<grin>. He exagerates of course, the need to be gargling is a myth. <smile>.
Er that was a little jumbled but thanks very much for making the request. I cannot help with Gaelic as both Irish and Scots Gaelic are very different from Welsh. Breton is close to Welsh and many words are said the same way, Manx is a law unto itself being a real mixture of Celts/Danes/Saxons and so on. BTW on the last point Saxon were called that by the Welsh, well British as they were then because the sword they carried a Saesin, NOT for their Country of origin. Many Saxons came from Northern Germany nowhere near Saxony! They just got given that general name as all of 'em carried the same type of weapon.
Diolch yn fawr [Thank yo very much indeed]
Rhobert ap Iorwerth

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Art
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Postby Art » 20 Dec 2005, 20:27

I've heard the Ll explained as a sound made by placing the tongue behind the teeth as if to sound an L and then without vocalizing the L, force a sound out by raising the back of the tongue sharply. For practice it was suggested that the tongue be placed behind the teeth as if to sound an L and then drop something heavy on one foot or the other whilst trying to stifle the resulting scream! :) Certainly it is one of the most difficult sounds for we novice Welsh learners to manage.
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Welsh Ll or what the 'Ll' if yo prefer <smile>

Postby ap Iorwerth » 20 Dec 2005, 20:55

Art, my wife and I liked your description about the Ll in our Language. It is, as Terry Pratchett might make Nanny Og say in one of his Discworld novels: *It's a bit of a bugger!* Of course you may know she also sings the world famous song, *Porcupinum nil sodomy est.* To which one can only say *Ouch!*

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Postby Gwilym Goch » 21 Dec 2005, 15:51

S'mai Rhobert? Mwy o Gymry 'di ymuno dwi'n gweld . . . Croeso.

Unikorn - Thanks, will do.

Art - that's about it, but instead of causing damage to your toes, you could just exhale while holding the tongue in the 'l' position. Don't want to see too many learners hobbling around this Christmas . . . :wink:

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Gwilym

Postby ap Iorwerth » 21 Dec 2005, 16:54

Dwi'n iawn diolch Gwil ond dwi'n siarad Saes, :) for the moment anyway. We're in Nth Wales near Llanberis, where are you?
Have to say it is great to see the upsurge of interest in Welsh from outside Wales itself. Our son Gareth is cochyn [a red head for our friends who won't know that :) ] but he hates the nickname. So I shan't tell him about this thread :)
May Danw [Danu] keep you all at this turn of the Year. Happy Jul/Yule to everyone. Ours is tinged with sadness as Rhiannon our daughter is dying of brain cancer. She is losing all senses but said she is content to go as The Mother has Called her. She is no pain, just leaving, walking over the mountain into the next valley. We shall scatter the ashes on Llyn Padarn as that was her wish. At the moment she is in a hospice in Wolverhampton, 2 and half hours drive for us, so we are on the road a lot at the moment.

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Gwilym Goch
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Postby Gwilym Goch » 28 Dec 2005, 16:36

ap Iorwerth

:candle:

Thinking of you and Rhiannon at this time, good to hear that all is well.

Cyfarchion yr Wyl.

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Postby Unikorn » 29 Dec 2005, 00:48

:candle: :rose: for Rhiannon in her journey, to light her way home

:hug: to you as you walk this path beside her
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Y Gwir yn erbyn Y Byd - Truth Against the World!
There is one word that will free us from the weight and the pain of life - that word is LOVE
"My vision is of a larger world. A place where the gentleness and courage of the peaceful way has the power to stand against any tide”. Barry Brailsford MBE
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Astrocelt

Postby ap Iorwerth » 30 Dec 2005, 20:12

I think astro has done a pretty good job but I agree that an audio version might be an idea. Having said that I have what is known as a Cofi accent, i.e. from Caernarfon, and tend to slur many of my words in speech. Mind you the same can bne said of people from different parts on the England. So--ooo if people want really good Welsh maybe they should listen to S4C or Radio Cymru on the Medium wave band. There they will hear what I can only call BBC Welsh which is pretty muvh like BBC English, correct in almost every way. The BBC Internet Site should allow easy access to all Radio Cymru and S4C Programmes. With the latter there are sub-titles for those whose Welsh isn't good.
ap Iorwerth.
P/s, I am male by the way, though obviously have a Welsh wife who is, for the record female. It is just that when filling in theses forms ther is no room for couples, only whether one is male or female. What happens if one is neither? ,<grin>

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Re: Astrocelt

Postby Gwilym Goch » 06 Jan 2006, 20:20

Having said that I have what is known as a Cofi accent, i.e. from Caernarfon, and tend to slur many of my words in speech.
My girlfiends a Cofi. I always thought the slur was down to the amount of booze she drank :wink:

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Kris
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Postby Kris » 27 Jan 2006, 14:04

Hi,
Mae'n tebyg fod tipyn ohonom yn byw yng ngogledd Cymru ar y fforwm yma, mae'n siomedig braidd fod na ddim chwaneg fwy ohonom yn y byd derwyddol. Gwilym a ap Iorwerh, neis iawn gweld brodyrion Cymraeg. Un o Ynys Mon dw'i, ond wedi fy'n magu yn Lanberis. Dwi hefyd yn rhedeg yr adran iaith Gymraeg ar safle we Rhwydwaith y Derwyddon. Bendithion y tymor i chi'ch dau.
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Gwilym Goch
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Postby Gwilym Goch » 27 Jan 2006, 16:11

Helo Kris,
Ydi mai'n biti nad oes yna fwy ohonom ni ar y negesfwrdd yma. Ond dyna ni. Rydan ni yma o leiaf! Mae'r Rhwydwaith Derwyddon yn swnio'n ddiddorol, mi a'i edrych amdano fo ar y we. Oes na grwp derwyddol yn lleol?

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Kris
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Postby Kris » 27 Jan 2006, 16:41

Hiya Gwilym,

Un o le wyt ti? Oes mae'na grwp ar ynys Mon, Urdd Derwyddon Mon, yn anffodus y fi yw'r unig Cymro yna!! Rwyf wedi bod yn chwilio am rhywyn arall Cymraeg i cymorthi a gefnogi'r Urdd, dim lwc hyd heddiw! Nid oes llawer ohonom yn y grwp, er hynny mae ganolfan derwyddig gennym yn Lanrhyddlad yng ngogledd yr ynys, yno rwyf i yn cynnal gweithgareddau a cwrsiau sy'n tynnu phobl hyd a lledrith Prydain. Efallai fydd rhaid i ni gwrdd yn o fuan, rwyf yn gweithio yn Llundain ar y funud, yn mynd mas garftref pob penwythnos, yn ol adref dydd Mawrth nesaf am wythnos i ddathlu Gwyl Ffraid.

Pob hwyl i ti,
Bendithion
Kris /|\

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Postby Megli » 12 Jul 2006, 14:34

Helo Kris, helo Gwilym! dw i wedi ymuno a'r negesfwrdd yma hefyd. Dydy Cymraeg ddim yn fy mam-iaith i, ond dw i'n dysgu Cymraeg cyfoes. Dw i'n gallu addysgu Cymraeg canoloesol, a ddysges i yn y brifysgol, fan hyn yn Rhydychen lle dw i'n byw.
gobeithio bod pethau'n mynd yn dda!

Bendithion
Megli

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Sulis
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Re: Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

Postby Sulis » 25 Nov 2007, 13:50

Hiya Just a guess here but what with mutations and dialect, could this possubly be what is written today as Brithion meaning speckled or spotted?
Yours in peace,
Sulius.

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Re: Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

Postby Ffenics Y Feudwy » 29 Jul 2011, 16:36

I'd just like to bump this thread with a list I personally made up, being a native welsh person. I found a lot of the guides online didn't show the pronounciation true enough, if you catch my drift. So I used a template to construct my own guide, one that describes the LL sound to the best of my ability as in my signature (teaching my daughters this was easy, one likes cats and the other is quite morbid LOL)

I Hope you find this helpful :)


http://ffenicsyfeudwy.wordpress.com/201 ... ing-welsh/
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Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible. I passed this gem onto my children!

To pronounce "LL" in welsh - pretend you're an angry cat or a vampire and force air along both sides of your tongue as you aspirate!

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Sulis
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Re: Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

Postby Sulis » 29 Jul 2011, 17:01

That is brilliant - well done.
You did well to show the difference between Rh and R by using the analogy of When and I would add that Ll is like that with an L, imagine you are saying L in the same way you say When by stressing the H whilst you say L and it does it.
You have spent a lot of time on this and if it is possible to recommend a member for an award for contribution and effort I would like to propose you for it : )

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Heddwas /|\
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Re: Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

Postby Heddwas /|\ » 25 Aug 2012, 07:02

'Ll' for beginners

Say 'both legs'.

Take away the 'bo' and the 'egs'.

Simples!
Blessings,

Heddwas /|\

"Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat"

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Re: Calling for a guide to Welsh pronunciation

Postby treegod » 25 Aug 2012, 08:27

The technical name for the pronunciation of Welsh <ll> is "voiceless lateral fricative". In IPA it's symbol is /ɬ/.

I've read that pronouncing hl or tl can have similar affects, though perhaps not exact. hl works better than tl.

My advice is to place the tongue as for the English l, and breathe forcefully over the sides of the tongue, squeezed under the teeth (but without voice). This should have the affect of the Welsh ll. If not then just try some of the advice above. :)


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