Forfeda

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Lily
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Forfeda

Postby Lily » 16 Jun 2011, 21:28

They are confusing because they are a later addition, there's "sea", "grove" and the "empty" Ogham -

Anyone a taker for coming up with a consensus?
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Lily


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D'Arzhur
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Re: Forfeda

Postby D'Arzhur » 18 Jun 2011, 16:12

I did not treat the Forfeda differently than the others... a personal experience (encounter in Nature and/or meditation/trance journey) added to the different info on each one easily found in various books, produced a personal meaning... which might slightly change or evolve with each encounter... :)
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Re: Forfeda

Postby dmiley » 18 Jun 2011, 17:52

I treat the forfeda as part of the complete set although lots of folks (particularly CR) do not. I did some extensive work on the forfeda not based on the OBOD/Colin Murray look at them but on traditional kennings and plant associations. Can be found at http://dmiley.livejournal.com use the tag "forfeda". This is mostly a work of imagination to try to fill in gaps. The most extensive was probably on uilleand http://dmiley.livejournal.com/22019.html (note that the shape of the letters is different between OBOD and most scholars. Representation of UI is a hook or an angle in trad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham while it is a double cross X in OBOD).

In healing work with the letters, I find that some of the forfeda seem particularly useful. Pin/Iphin (double cross X) is a rememberance of the sweetness of life - something important for anyone's healing.

David

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ebhadh
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Re: Forfeda

Postby ebhadh » 22 Jun 2011, 12:23

Hi, Lily

the forfeda are contraversial and there are varied interpretations on what they represent. I studied a book by an Irish scholar Damien McManus who had examined much of the history, also the meanings are given in old Irish sayings called Kennings - but they are written as riddles you have to guess! The best interpretation I found of the first, X symbol, is white poplar or aspen - the Kenning is fairest fish. The aspens and poplars float very well. The second one literally means gold, it is shown as a circle or diamond shape, the tree suggested is the Spindle, the third one might be Honeysuckle - it is a bit like the ogam for Gort, but halved and drawn crossed back on itself, the next one, the spiral, is more contentious - it is called Iphin - which is gooseberry, or Pion, which is pine. It looks a bit like a letter P 'great elbow' is the Kenning given, also sweetest of woods. The box-shape is eamancholl - it literally means double-coll, like hazel twice. I believe this is definately beech, the beech nuts grow like paired hazel-nuts. Beech-wood was used to make the first books (old knowledge). There is a sixth character, peith, which is the water-elder or guelder rose. It is just a straight line adjacent to the stem line. This one links to water and the sea. As a bog-growing plant this shrub was considered special. It is not easy to find, but has the most amazing clumps of red berries. It marks an ending and a beginning, like elder, and also rhymes with beith!

ebhadh :smgrove:
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Re: Forfeda

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 20 Jul 2011, 00:33

Hi, Lily

the forfeda are contraversial and there are varied interpretations on what they represent. I studied a book by an Irish scholar Damien McManus who had examined much of the history, also the meanings are given in old Irish sayings called Kennings - but they are written as riddles you have to guess! The best interpretation I found of the first, X symbol, is white poplar or aspen - the Kenning is fairest fish. The aspens and poplars float very well. The second one literally means gold, it is shown as a circle or diamond shape, the tree suggested is the Spindle, the third one might be Honeysuckle - it is a bit like the ogam for Gort, but halved and drawn crossed back on itself, the next one, the spiral, is more contentious - it is called Iphin - which is gooseberry, or Pion, which is pine. It looks a bit like a letter P 'great elbow' is the Kenning given, also sweetest of woods. The box-shape is eamancholl - it literally means double-coll, like hazel twice. I believe this is definately beech, the beech nuts grow like paired hazel-nuts. Beech-wood was used to make the first books (old knowledge). There is a sixth character, peith, which is the water-elder or guelder rose. It is just a straight line adjacent to the stem line. This one links to water and the sea. As a bog-growing plant this shrub was considered special. It is not easy to find, but has the most amazing clumps of red berries. It marks an ending and a beginning, like elder, and also rhymes with beith!
A great thread. There is a really short book called 'The Values of the Forefeda' which survived from the medieval period. Calder includes it in his publication of the Auraceipt, I take it as preserving the correct letter order names and values. Though as McManus says-these seem to have developed over time as an addition.

I have never came across the letter 'peith' as a 6th forefeda. With respect, what is your source for this as an ogam 'letter?'

Thanks

JP


ebhadh :smgrove:[/quote]

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Re: Forfeda

Postby ebhadh » 21 Jul 2011, 09:25

Hi, JP

Thanks for your question about Peith. Peith, as a letter P for a 6th forfeda, is documented in a number of websites that deal with character scripts for Ogam - see, for example, h [url]http://www.evertype.com/standard ... /is434.pdf
so it is definately 'alive and well' and in general use. The original reference I found, back in 2003, is no longer on the web.

mac.com gives some more useful information:
http://homepage.mac.com/antallan/ogham.html

I see he has oir as honeysuckle and uillean as spindle, though!

In his book, a guide of Ogam, McManus gives a small mention to Peith on page 184, and also mentioned it in an earlier work 1988, 167 (which I don't have, unfortunately).

ebhadh :smgrove:
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Re: Forfeda

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 21 Jul 2011, 10:53

Hi, JP Thanks for your question about Peith. Peith, as a letter P for a 6th forfeda, is documented in a number of websites

In his book, a guide of Ogam, McManus gives a small mention to Peith on page 184, and also mentioned it in an earlier work 1988, 167 (which I don't have, unfortunately). ebhadh :smgrove:
Ebhadh,

Your welcome! Thanks a million for your reply.

'Websites!' lol. It is certainly interesting that Everson put this symbol in-I wonder where he got it from? I am just a bit of an Ogam nerd really and having spent Years on the source material-I am genuinely interested in original sources.

There are of course many 'Extra Forefeda' in the medieval manuscripts-some of these symbols are really cosmological mysteries to my mind. I have a chapter in my book that closely explores all the Ogam variations-but really such is but an
introduction as there is much still to be done (scholarly and esoterically) in elucidating these.

However I think that Peith being presented as an especial 6th Forefeda is misleading, as the original scheme is clearly and consistently presented as five-fold... even the idea makes my inner sense of balance shudder! lol

The McManus ref you give is actually a footnote in his forefeda section, where the word Peith is not otherwise mentioned and certainly that symbol is not referenced at all. I have that earlier McManus text. It's in Eriu 39 which you can still buy online (highly recommended as it explores the Ogam etymology in unparalleled depth). In it he says that of course there
was no p in the original Irish Q Celtic language. Then it was later added via the Forefeda Pin, which later became a
dipthong. So they needed some other way of representing p and came up with Peith from Beith as a 'soft b. ' He again does not mention the curious symbol for Peith given ref those websites. Though even if such was done it would be perhaps more a variation on Beith (there are lots of variations on the regular letter too!) rather than an 'extra' in the regular forefeda.

Sorry if I am being too anal. I am just soooo passionate about Ogam and I am also really passionate about the magical study and use of it.

Thanks again for your reply. It's always a pleasure to have dialogue with someone else who shares my passion.

With Respect.

JP

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Re: Forfeda

Postby ebhadh » 25 Jul 2011, 11:37

Dear JP

I had another look through my notes and found the reference about why Peith was included.

http://www.evertype.com/standards/og/n037.html

There was a meeting, of ISO/IEC, in 1997, where they agreed this inclusion - so hardly any ancient authority!

I agree about the symmetry of five being fundamental to the original pattern of the ogam when it reached a stage of becoming a marked symbolic representation, seeming to be most naturally simple cuts onto wooden sticks. It makes best sense of the devised straight cut marks. The forfeda do not really conform to this and we know they were added later - they do not conform to the original concept. I wonder, also, about whether the forfeda signs are in any way linked to 'tic tac' man style semaphores?

ebhadh :smgrove:
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Re: Forfeda

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 25 Jul 2011, 12:14

Dear JP

I had another look through my notes and found the reference about why Peith was included.

http://www.evertype.com/standards/og/n037.html

There was a meeting, of ISO/IEC, in 1997, where they agreed this inclusion - so hardly any ancient authority!

I agree about the symmetry of five being fundamental to the original pattern of the ogam when it reached a stage of becoming a marked symbolic representation, seeming to be most naturally simple cuts onto wooden sticks. It makes best sense of the devised straight cut marks. The forfeda do not really conform to this and we know they were added later - they do not conform to the original concept. I wonder, also, about whether the forfeda signs are in any way linked to 'tic tac' man style semaphores?

ebhadh :smgrove:
Thanks for your reply and for sharing the link. Yeah, the forefeda certainly 'seem' a later addition. Though the symbols themselves are very ancient eg the spiral and chevron designs on much earlier rock art eg Knowth. I have explored the idea that the term Forefeda may also refer to 'over-trees/letters' and have been held as particularly sacred. The many other forefeda in In Leabhor Ogaim are not represented on stone but may have been part of the systems use on wood. Eg many are identical to runes, bind-runes and cryptic runes...anyway... now I'm starting to ramble! : )

I think the semaphore thing was certainly a part of the tradition with basogam using the regular letters for hand signals. I think this could also allow for distant communication via flags (as was done in ancient Greece) or even via a musical code such as on a drum. Cryptic runes use the same method as the Greeks-with one part representing the letter group and the other the place within the group.

Cheers!

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Re: Forfeda

Postby JohnPaulPatton » 25 Jul 2011, 12:27

Oh, meant to mention one of the many things that struck me on a detailed study of the ogam permutations in In Leabhor Ogaim is how many of the symbols are practically identical to those found on places like Knowth and Newgrange. It may be that the ogamists just copied from the stones...but there is also the possiblity that the meanings of the rock art symbols had survived via the Filid. There are actually two ogam inscribed at Knowth-these are considered to be a much later addition by archaeologists-but I think it's at least possible that they may be part of the original art. I have found in my research that there are also ogam style markings at Carrowkeel... dating to around 3,000 bce. I love not having to be a conservative academic and thinking outside the box! :)


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